Buff Shocks

Currently the only close combat elite infantry often used in game are commandos - thanks to a cammo and powerfull granade they are relaly effective squad - they are way above other equivalents in other factions

I think shocks have a similar problem like assault grens. Both are quite decent at vet0 vs other vet0/vet1 squads. Thing is that later game there is no place for them ig. Being sneaking late game is really hard becouse most of sight blockers are already destroyed.

For example How can assualt grens match close range riflemen with double bar? They can't becouse how could them if riflemen spend 120 ammo for an upgrade. Basic infantry is good enough to deal with them.

If you playing teamgames you rather go guards and fight on a distance and count on your ally - UKF player who gets commandos.

IMO what those two close combat units (shocks and assault grens) should have ammo upgrade which would give them RA buff - but available later stage of a game (let's say after reaching t4). Therefore they should be more welcome later game and not overpower in early stage.

Anyway something most be done becouse guard meta is too dominant right now and it's way to boring

You're diving balls deep into semantics and strawman arguments again.

Semantics, strawman argument and turning balance threads into personal flamer wars is your thing not mine.
My suggestion to you would be to stop obsessing with what I do and focus more on what you write, maybe then you stop writing complete and utter bullshit like :
"Osttruppen and all the numerous buffs they kept getting patch to patch is a proof of that."

We both know the alternative is not op, unless you want to claim that literally any other unit you could get at that time is OP, because getting any other unit is a better choice in literally any other situation.

If you actually have something to suggest for Shock troops pls do so, else pls stop obsessing with what I know or don't know.

I have actually made my suggestion for shock troops.

I use shocks sometimes with terror tactics,they are not so UP. It's a really durable unit and can engage mainline infantry still with 4 models. I feel they are a good choice only vs whermacht with 1 ptrs penals.The only problem is lategame vetted lmg grens and obers, but it's ok, in the early mid game they can hold choke points alone, you can keep shocks in cover receiving long range dps, they will take ages to force your retreat and they give you a lot of control map. Need to be careful buffing this unit. Ah and i forgot that shocks and pgrens are the only elite infantry units that don't need weapon upgrades to be effective.

I completely agree with this analysis and the real only buff I would ever give them is a weapons upgrade package with x3 SVT to buff their mid-long range DPS, precisely to mitigate the weakness you describe as this would allow them to scale better against elite/vetted long range infantry becoming dominant in the mid-late game.

Shocks are only effective in close range combat, make them better at mid range combat at vet 2 or 3. That would be a nice buff.
Maybe also revert the shared cool down from the grenades.
Job done

I totally agree with Vipper. A unit not being used simply means that there were better options. Another example is that after the 222 got cost nerfed from 210/15 to 250/30, the autocannon AoE was also nerfed to shit vs inf (and snipers.) At that point Soviet 2man snipers were op. How come nobody used them. Because flamer penals were also op and SO MUCH easier to use than snipers (and snipers won't work with them due to lack of snare). When the flamer was removed and ptrs added, the forums flooded with op SU sniper complaints because the SU build adapted to ptrs penal + 2 sniper (or con/guard + 2 sniper). Was the SU sniper not op when SU was spamming flame penals. No, the snipers were op at that time, but they were only overshadowed by the greatness of flamer penals.

You forgot something, all snipers were OP and single snipers were stronger due to how cloak worked at that time (shoot from out of cammo and then cloak). Combined that with cheap 222 and it was single sniper with rof > double models.
Still at that point, double SU sniper was not the main strat because maxim still lead as an option as well as plain Penals. Also UKF and USf were still viable. After several more changes (complete removal of UKF gimmicks) we arrived to SU sniper heavy strats and later forcing the rework into 1 model snipers.

You nerf everything across the board and then you suddenly have units which shine. If you think that's a likeable approach to the problem, then so be it.

If anything @Stark hits the nail of the problem. Both AssGrens and Shocks (removed) lack a gimmick which let them scales into the late game (cloak and nuke bomb).


EVEN if they kept their whole smoke + grenade, i don't think we would see use of them. While would you ever pick a commander which includes Shocks ? KV8? ISU152? Flame barrage? Propaganda? IS2? Right now there are better alternatives 90% of the time.

You forgot something, all snipers were OP and single snipers were stronger due to how cloak worked at that time (shoot from out of cammo and then cloak). Combined that with cheap 222 and it was single sniper with rof > double models.

If anything @Stark hits the nail of the problem. Both AssGrens and Shocks (removed) lack a gimmick which let them scales into the late game (cloak and nuke bomb).

Actually something that most people missed is that the SU 2man sniper isn't op in itself, but the fact that the 222 mg was ninja nerfed vs snipers a while back made the 2man op. If the mg wasn't purposely nerfed and performed normally or got a bonus vs snipers like all the other scout cars in the game, the 2man would be less of a problem. The bal team discovered the 222 mg wasn't working as intended for quite a while and now they've finally fixed it in the latest patch.

I've also said that the scaling for shocks is quite poor. In fact agrens, shocks and commandos don't scale either.

Actually something that most people missed is that the SU 2man sniper isn't op in itself, but the fact that the 222 mg was ninja nerfed vs snipers a while back made the 2man op. If the mg wasn't purposely nerfed and performed normally or got a bonus vs snipers like all the other scout cars in the game, the 2man would be less of a problem. The bal team discovered the 222 mg wasn't working as intended for quite a while and now they've finally fixed it in the latest patch.

I've also said that the scaling for shocks is quite poor. In fact agrens, shocks and commandos don't scale either.

Commandos easily scale the best tho and of you bloody well wanted could become stealth tank smackers (you wouldn't want to but the option is there!) plus don't they heal out of cover? Big if true!

Commandos easily scale the best tho and of you bloody well wanted could become stealth tank smackers (you wouldn't want to but the option is there!) plus don't they heal out of cover? Big if true!

Umm, you talk coh1 here, right?

Because in CoH2 commandos are a singular unit with absolutely worst scaling out of all squads - even engineers get higher bonuses.

Healing is the same as volks healing and is a vet bonus.

Actually something that most people missed is that the SU 2man sniper isn't op in itself, but the fact that the 222 mg was ninja nerfed vs snipers a while back made the 2man op. If the mg wasn't purposely nerfed and performed normally or got a bonus vs snipers like all the other scout cars in the game, the 2man would be less of a problem. The bal team discovered the 222 mg wasn't working as intended for quite a while and now they've finally fixed it in the latest patch.

I've also said that the scaling for shocks is quite poor. In fact agrens, shocks and commandos don't scale either.

You are a bit confused. There were NO NINJA NERFS (ninja implies it wasn't registered on the changelog or at least intended).
Before permanently changing the 221 into 222, it got an HP buff (200>240). 221 was DECENT sniper chaser but never good (target tables were not introduced yet). When they permanently transformed it, they increased the cost to 230/30, because OH is already muni strained early on. Now here is where the ninja buff appeared which made the unit oppressive. They rightfully buffed the HP (240>320) but they used an old version which had the old cost of the 222 (210/15). Further on, they introduced target tables for some light vehicles to have a bonus against snipers.
Now, the 222 had a completely awful MG42 because IIRC it's tracking angle was so low that only perfectly aligning the vehicle would allow it to shoot. This was fixed but since stealth across the board was going to be nerfed, the basically removed the bonus and instead it had a penalty. Thought process was basically that 222 went from 0 (because it wasn't shooting) to something and they were reluctant to new sniper performance vs 222. Note: 222/Autacannon was never good against sniper outside of lucky shots.

Since i don't have access to files here, not sure if they added later a bonus against snipers (1.5) or they simple change it from 0.75 > 1.0.


Commandos don't need to scale, because they have a nuke grenade AND stealth. They "scale" or remain relevant due to this factor.
AssGren also scale badly but at least they remain to be a 5man squad unit on a faction with base 4model squads. IIRC they reinforce cheaper than grens as well.
Shocks are not a squad you NEED and merging with cons provide an antisynergy as opposed to other squads.

Right now, i do think that smoke (even if buffed) + grenade (even if buffed but nowhere near bundle/nuke) is way less cheesier than stealth + nuke bombs. Note: Shocks nade is an unique profile. Guards-Partisan/IS/Rifles/etc. use the same profile 80/60/20 while Shocks is 80/60/40 (radius and lethal radius remain the same) with the added particularly that it is the only grenade in the game with lethal friendly fire radius (80/12). Even bundle/nuke deal only 25dmg. This doesn't include satchel type explosives.

Umm, you talk coh1 here, right?

Because in CoH2 commandos are a singular unit with absolutely worst scaling out of all squads - even engineers get higher bonuses.

Healing is the same as volks healing and is a vet bonus.

How does camo in this game work again? Something about cover right? And what happens as the game progresses? Lots of cover which means lots of chances to be camod and ambush. Their role is strengthened as the game progresses not weakened like shocks.
And is self heal suddenly not amazing just because volks get it?

How does camo in this game work again? Something about cover right? And what happens as the game progresses? Lots of cover which means lots of chances to be camod and ambush. Their role is strengthened as the game progresses not weakened like shocks.
And is self heal suddenly not amazing just because volks get it?

While vet scaling used to suck compared to other infantry (through raw number performance) he might probably missed the changes which are kinda hidden on the changelog (it's on the commander changelog revamp, still for some reason. Unrelated it's also a mess to read it). Not as bad but not as great as most infantry.

Veterancy 3 self-healing moved to veterancy 1
Veterancy 2 grants +35% speed during ambush for 3.25 seconds; Veterancy 0 sprint Ambush bonus removed
Veterancy 2 accuracy from +25% to +30%
Veterancy 3 now provides 0.9 received accuracy

Not sure about vet 2 +25% grenade range and vet 3 smoke on retreat.

Other squads get around +30/40% acc bonus, cooldown bonus, -15%/-29% RA

How does camo in this game work again? Something about cover right? And what happens as the game progresses? Lots of cover which means lots of chances to be camod and ambush. Their role is strengthened as the game progresses not weakened like shocks.
And is self heal suddenly not amazing just because volks get it?

keep in mind that self-heal is vet 1 for commandos and vet 5 for VG.

Shocks are fine, if you stick them in a M5 and then they will win every infantry fight.

Shocks are fine, if you stick them in a M5 and then they will win every infantry fight.

You just need to pick up a panzerschreck and they are fine!

Shocks are fine, if you stick them in a M5 M3 and then they will win every infantry fight.

PQ Approves

Another idea would be to make their armour a squad ability and not entity ability (could even be an upgrade costing Mu).

Then merge would become much more attractive and the unit would cause less bleed.

Another idea would be to make their armour a squad ability and not entity ability (could even be an upgrade costing Mu).

Then merge would become much more attractive and the unit would cause less bleed.

interesting.