King Tiger balance fix: smoke launchers

Allies have a number a great AT option like ISU-152, SU-85, Su-76, T-34/85, M36, M10, Persing, FF AEC and AT weapon in an number of infantry their infantry.

Saying they "have 1 TD for to do it all" is simply not true, misleading and it's also bad design.

Your 2nd part is correct, but how the hell is a Pershing, 85s or AEC TDs ? Might as well say that any medium tank is a great AT option if they flank.

Light vehicles, light tanks, mediums, advanced mediums and heavy tanks.
In the same way that OH lacks vehicle options to deal with light tanks (non doc), other factions have lost effectiveness in their low-mid tier AT vehicles (Su76-Stug-M10) or have them more focused on dealing with heavy tanks.
If the game drags pass the light stage, you don't want Pumas, AEC, Su76s or Stuart. Non doctrinally, Axis has 2 options to deal with medium to heavy tanks in either different effective ways. Stug/JPIV for mediums and PV for heavier armored vehicles. Su85, Jackson and FF have seen their power shift towards dealing with heavier vehicles even though they still can deal with mediums.

IS-2 is in worse state then KT for almost a year, whatever you can do to KT, you can do the same to IS-2.

PRE BUFF IS2 was in a worst state than pre nerf KT for sure and maybe equal to KT post nerf. Right now IS2 > KT, specially on 1v1.

Where did i said it? maybe i mean the some best top 20 players, like angreifen?

here u go and look how bad IS2 is and how great KT is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bylm5bZEZ5A

Floating +400 muni when you have Ober/Fall/2 Volks. Angreifen threw that game after the IS2 base rush. He had the lead, comp wise, specially after sniping the Su85. Then the Katy snipes the Obers (lucky that the rocket impact the carcass of the Su85) and it's a downfall from then on. Keeps sending single squads around the map, while Ikab defends with the IS2. Then sends his single 75% HP JPIV to chase 75% HP IS2 and loses it. While also losing another Volk squad to the Katyusha (he back off towards the volley).
He could had either throw his whole army headfront and use his offmap and win that game, or spam grenades on every engagements and win the map control. Instead he kept pushing with half his army across the whole map while losing squad here and there. When the KT arrived, he already had lost half his army and it's vet.

At the end, he rush his PIV towards a zone he already knew there were mines and losses the game. The 2 Penals getting behind the un micro KT and satcheling to dead was inconsequential towards the result of the match.

PD: just to be clear. KT is bad, but not too far off. Remove drunken IS2 gunner phenomenon and it would be fine. 1v1, heavy wonders doesn't work as well so don't expect it to be a "come back" unit.
IS2 is not such a meme unit after the buffs but i still think the alternatives are stronger (T3485s) cause you don't have to play the waiting game.
If any allied TDs is overperforming against simple mediums, there's always the option to reduce accuracy and instead increase the size of all advance mediums and heavies. Which TBH i don't think it's necessary.

Your 2nd part is correct, but how the hell is a Pershing, 85s or AEC TDs ?

That is why I wrote AT option and not TDs. My point is and remains that picture painted was misleading.

(side note, Katitof has decided to baptize Pumas as a TD and would make AEC a TD also)

The smoke launchers were just an idea.
What about the other proposed solutions?

Other reasonable proposals:

- lower veterancy requirements


- increase damage output consistancy similar to the recent Brumbar changes. Better accuracy/scatter for the main gun but the aoe damage being spread out over a larger area. This would decrease full squad wiping potential and instead deal consistant health and model damage to infantry.
in combination with:
- decrease far range penetration of AT guns and TDs now that the Panther's armor has been nerfed in the recent patch. This would increase the KT's frontal protection at long range and leave it less vulnerable/helpless against max range kiting TDs.


- add heavy tank trait to KT (and all other heavies) that snares to the front armor can not do engine criticals. Only rear armor hit snares would have a chance to do engine critical.


- keep performance the same but decrease the cost and popcap to make it more accessable.


- move Spearhead ability to vet 1

TDs are not always equal to ATs options and vice-versa. Katitof clearly wrote his post about TDs and not AT-options, please mind the distinction before telling others are wrong.

tbh i'd rather see less smoke in the game too.

Then you suggest that smoke is removed from all the allied tanks that have it.

TDs are not always equal to ATs options and vice-versa. Katitof clearly wrote his post about TDs and not AT-options, please mind the distinction before telling others are wrong.

Edit: Oh, I should have checked the username first before replying, ah well, it is posted now...

TDs and AT option are not the same but what Katitof clearly wrote was that allies has only 1 TD that has to do all, which simply Bullshit, they have plenty of good option to deal with the majority of axis vehicles.

...

Allies have 1 TD to do it all, axis can choose with what they can engage.

...

tbh i'd rather see less smoke in the game too.

Then you suggest that smoke is removed from all the allied tanks that have it.

Where the hell do I say that? I said i'd rather have less smoke in the game within the context of the thread and the discussion; I do not say "I suggest to remove the smoke from all allied tanks that have it". I wasn't even replying to you, I was adding to the general discussion. You need to read, geez, these axis lovers..

Where the hell do I say that? I said i'd rather have less smoke in the game within the context of the thread and the discussion; I do not say "I suggest to remove the smoke from all allied tanks that have it". I wasn't even replying to you, I was adding to the general discussion. You need to read, geez, these axis lovers..

Since you now are aware to whom you replying I would suggest that you stick to what you have agreed and stop quoting, responding or mention me in anyway, else will simply not be trustworthy.

Bye bye now.

Oh, get your gears together mate, I reply for once in a while in the forum and you brand me instantly as not trustworthy. Typical Vipper ad hominem. Back to the topic.

Other reasonable proposals:
- increase damage output consistancy similar to the recent Brumbar changes. Better accuracy/https://www.coh2.org/post/update/post_id/690057#scatter for the main gun but the aeo damage being spread out over a larger area. This would decrease full squad wiping potential and instead deal consistant health and model damage to infantry.
in combination with:
- decrease far range penetration of AT guns and TDs now that the Panther's armor has been nerfed in the recent patch. This would increase the KT's frontal protection at long range and leave it less vulnerable/helpless against max range kiting TDs.


- add heavy tank trait to KT (and all other heavies) that snares to the front armor can not do engine criticals. Only rear armor hit snares would have a chance to do engine critical.


- keep performance the same but decrease the cost and popcap to make it more accessable.


- move Spearhead ability to vet 1

Actually, the suggestions above make a bit more sense than just adding smoke, but I generally believe that the KT is in an acceptable viable design space as it is right now but it needs some minor adjustments. This can be an accuracy improvement paired with a pop-cap reduction; that would do the trick.

The problem is the following:

allie infantery is mostly superior. Look at guards or other rifle and IS blobbs. Can walk around and right equiped deal with all targets.
Allie TDs are superior since last patches. German armor was nerfed hard. KT is slow a shit. is expanive as shit. (thats why noone build it last tournements. ot lose it/ repaired it all the game).

penals and guards can walk up against tanks without fear wiping, gurads slows the armor from far range, penals satchels it.
ever played against the new superior ISU? it wipies from 60-70 range units easily.
has the armor to bounce very often AT and TDs shot and can be really fast.(compared to jgtiger)
comes in a doc, where you can callin bombin run on heavy tank and destroy them. with guards, aim target and hiding AT gun.

So safe your ISU with AT and TDs and win easily ...jgtiger is no problem (see guards/penals/ bombing run)

Try capturing the munitions points once and a while and watch penal/guard starts fall to bits. It's effective because it's the ONLY munitions thirsty start the Soviet have
Plus if your KT is facing guards and penal without the ability to focus down penals (who get no rec acc buffs except to the last man) it means you failed to support your armour and the enemy is taking advantage of that with their AT assets, which isn't a balance issue its a player issue. Where is your flak track? Or even mg42 will stop penals from skipping up to your KT unchecked, buttoned or not. Where is your mines, your infantry, your other armour? Why is your KT alone? I killed a Katy using pios. Pios OP? They aren't even AT units! Totally a balance issue and not a problem with the person on control of the mouse...

Plus if your KT is facing guards and penal without the ability to focus down penals (who get no rec acc buffs except to the last man)

This is incorrect.

And the point is that if you need your entire army to keep a KT alive, then that just proves how bad of a state it is in right now. For spending significantly more than any other unit in the game (plus tech costs) you would expect a unit to be quite good. There have been a lot of changes and buffs that are just "a player issue" (USF mortar: just use rifleman smoke and 640 HP Jacksons: just kite with 60 range come to mind) and yet those came into play, so such a similar excuse has no merit when it come to a KT that is obviously under performing.

It doesn't need more survivability. It needs a consistent main gun.

The nerfs to the KT made it very unreliable: if it hits it obliterates squads, but it's not very likely to hit. This makes it an inconsistent, frustrating unit to play and to play against: one moment it's a Brummbar-esque wrecking ball, the next it has the damage output of a Kubelwagen.

It needs its accuracy tuned up and its AOE profile squashed like the Brummbar. No more full health squad wipes, but very consistent damage.

This is incorrect.

And the point is that if you need your entire army to keep a KT alive, then that just proves how bad of a state it is in right now. For spending significantly more than any other unit in the game (plus tech costs) you would expect a unit to be quite good. There have been a lot of changes and buffs that are just "a player issue" (USF mortar: just use rifleman smoke and 640 HP Jacksons: just kite with 60 range come to mind) and yet those came into play, so such a similar excuse has no merit when it come to a KT that is obviously under performing.

while i do think the KT is in a poor spot, the counter argument that it should be able to solo anything because its expensive is absurd.if it was facing either squad alone they would be toast, and even as is they slow and satchel it then what? they retreat because they cant take it on by themselves.we HAD a king tiger that didnt need support and wiped every shot. it was bad for the game. i think the last accuracy nerf was unneeded and that allied TDs are over performing but the KT should be immune to bad play because you paid a lot for it.

while i do think the KT is in a poor spot, the counter argument that it should be able to solo anything because its expensive is absurd.if it was facing either squad alone they would be toast, and even as is they slow and satchel it then what? they retreat because they cant take it on by themselves.we HAD a king tiger that didnt need support and wiped every shot. it was bad for the game. i think the last accuracy nerf was unneeded and that allied TDs are over performing but the KT should be immune to bad play because you paid a lot for it.

THan pls tell my why tanks like pershing can wipe with mostly every shot... it has konsistenz dmg and you should really fear this thing with your squad. it is fast, nice flanker and when reach vet3 it has a insane dps because of firerate

while i do think the KT is in a poor spot, the counter argument that it should be able to solo anything because its expensive is absurd

Don't put this in extremes. No one said it should be able to solo everything, you made this up.
If you carefully read Hoshi's comment he literally says it should be 'quite good' - in line with its cost.

This cost effectiveness argument is not about it being either too bad (like right now) or too good, it's about settling in the middle. Such an expensive unit should still have to be supported to survive but it should also perform better on its own than it currently does. The proposals I've summarized in the OP would make the KT more worth its cost while not making it too good.

it should have more range than a p4 or other mediums! it shoud have 50-55 range.

in real the KT had a fast turrent speed and was the fastest heavy tank.

THan pls tell my why tanks like pershing can wipe with mostly every shot... it has konsistenz dmg and you should really fear this thing with your squad. it is fast, nice flanker and when reach vet3 it has a insane dps because of firerate

I wonder if costing as much as heavy tank, but not being as durable as one AND being doctrinal may have anything to do with it.

Pershing trades survivability for damage.

KT isn't exactly a squishy unit.

Pershing, unlike KT, is also doctrinal, therefore much, much more limited then KT.
Now, there is also IS-2, which is equally inaccurate as KT and also renown for durability.

in real the KT had a fast turrent speed and was the fastest heavy tank.

In real, germany lost the war.
But if you want to bring up real life, then it should cost twice as much as it does now as well.

I wonder if costing as much as heavy tank, but not being as durable as one AND being doctrinal may have anything to do with it.

Pershing trades survivability for damage.

KT isn't exactly a squishy unit.

Pershing, unlike KT, is also doctrinal, therefore much, much more limited then KT.
Now, there is also IS-2, which is equally inaccurate as KT and also renown for durability.


In real, germany lost the war.
But if you want to bring up real life, then it should cost twice as much as it does now as well.

u dont know the stats, thats why you talk this nonsense.

IS2 has the same high speed like pershing: 6 ...a KT is nearly only half of this (3.8)
IS has a rotate from nearly 40...a KT only 25.
IS2 has the SAME armor and only Hp less than the KT (1280 vs 1040)

So we have a twice as fast KT clone with the same armor and similar HP. What does that mean? Of course the IS2 is just a meme, right? a KT on speed means you can use it better to hit the enemy.

You really are desperate if you're comparing speed without comparing acceleration, while completely ignoring damage, penetration, range, scatter.

Also, the IRONY of saying I don't know stats, while you provide false ones yourself.

IS-2 max speed is 5, not 6.
How often you use that speed as well?
IS-2 isn't exactly a chasing tank and you're not going to go balls deep with it, so that speed couldn't be more irrelevant.

Stop grasping at straws.
IS-2 and KT share exactly the same problems, stop being so ignorant.

IS-2 and KT share exactly the same problems, stop being so ignorant.

They DO NOT.
IS2 must not face satchels, jacksons (high mobile TD with turrent), mass infantery with handheld AT, nondoc 17pounder paks, fast shooting AT guns,

IS2 faces slow, low accuracy jgp4; single or double schreck with misses a lot.. and only on 4model squads avaible;

and you dont know that a vet3 I2 has speed6. Learn the stats, my friend.

HELL: Even the range from IS2 is with 50 better than KT (only poor 45)

why are people comparing the is2 with the KT? is2 is a tank which u can compare with the tiger not the KT.

KT only needs some small adjustments, maybe armour up to 400? but thats it