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russian armor

Remove the T34/76 model variant with the fuel tanks

17 Jun 2018, 16:15 PM
#21
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



How is an entirely different turret (and even a bigger gun) less obvious than the gun being the only difference between a regular P4 and a CP4? The T34-85 even has different sounds.

Other mediums/vehicles are a fair comparison. It's just down to personal knowledge to distinguish units based on vehicle model details.


Because the difference between the snub p4 and the long barrel is like 3/4 of the entire barrel. As opposed to the 34 variants which is much smaller gap.

17 Jun 2018, 16:43 PM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6



Seriously like how many visual clues do you need
17 Jun 2018, 17:07 PM
#23
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587



Seriously like how many visual clues do you need


In a quick glance, you can't get that info and that is a problem.
17 Jun 2018, 17:15 PM
#24
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

I don't understand why people are comparing other mediums to this. There are FAR larger changes between for example, the snub nose p4 and long barrel p4. The command p4 not only has 1/4 the length of the barrel but also a different icon that is much easier identified. The t34 differences are far less obvious as seen in OP. The barrel is slightly longer and the chasis is slightly different. It is easily the most similar 2 tanks you can field simultainiously.


I didn't mean command p4. It is obviously different, just as t-34 variants are obviously different. I ment ost/okw p4 and ost/okw/command panther that differ only in camo visually but have different stats. Of course it doesn't matter in 1v1.

As for t-34, what really is too similar in its variants is the unit icon.
17 Jun 2018, 17:31 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

34/85 got very distinguished large turret and larger, longer gun barrel, which 34/76 does not have.

Elements on the rear also are different.

Its like putting Greyhound and M20 next to each other and complain they look the same, because of hull.
17 Jun 2018, 18:16 PM
#26
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



Seriously like how many visual clues do you need


If you think you can tell the difference between a turret size of 1 vs 1.2 when they're NOT next to each other AT A GLANCE, in comparison to how quickly you can tell the difference between an upgunned M4A3 and the 75mm HE, then you must have hawk vision as well as gifted brain processing speed.

For the rest of us, this is about EASE when differentiating between the 2. Maxim spam back in the day wasn't undefeatable, but the EASE vs effectivness was outrageous between the 2 players.

Futhermore, what are we sacrificing by making the t34 variants MORE distinguishable? I highly doubt replayability is sky rocketing because of a slightly larger turret and barrel.

This is a similar concept to parepheral vision, which only picks up basic colors and shapes, as opposed to tunnel vision which can discern more.
17 Jun 2018, 19:07 PM
#27
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Unit recognition is part of mastering the game. The turrets are easy to distinguish instantly once you know what to look for.

Let's put them in another perspective. Are you seriously having trouble seeing the huge difference in turret size and shape? The completely different gun mantlet area?
Not to mention a distinct difference in engine noise and gun sound.
17 Jun 2018, 19:12 PM
#28
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

Strongly disagree! Their outward looks different enough to recognise, which T-34 you face on the battlefield. Here is two main differents:

1. Different turret (most obvious one)
2. T-34 has square fuel tanks on the rear, T-34-85 has round smoke generator devices on the rear.

In that case, Shermans need to get different hulls too, because now:

- Soviet M4A2(76)
- American M4A3
- American M4A3(105)
- American M4A3(76)

have absolutely same hulls. Their differences (except M4A3(105) cause of dipper) only in turret (like for T-34 and T-34-85).

Also M4A3(76), M4A2(76) and M4A3(76)HVSS have very common outward.



^This
Basically this as far as the argument goes.
17 Jun 2018, 19:19 PM
#29
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

This is just how the game is. The T34/85 has a completely different turret.

Other units with similar or identical hulls but different turrets:
  • Stuart versus Scott
  • 250 Halftrack versus 250 Mortar Halftrack
  • OST Panzer IV versus OKW Panzer IV
  • Panzer IV versus Command Panzer IV
  • StuG E versus StuG G
  • Four different Sherman variants

And let's not forget Jackson versus Wolverine.
17 Jun 2018, 19:31 PM
#30
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1467 | Subs: 4

Strongly disagree! Their outward looks different enough to recognise, which T-34 you face on the battlefield. Here is two main differents:

1. Different turret (most obvious one)
2. T-34 has square fuel tanks on the rear, T-34-85 has round smoke generator devices on the rear.

In that case, Shermans need to get different hulls too, because now:

- Soviet M4A2(76)
- American M4A3
- American M4A3(105)
- American M4A3(76)

have absolutely same hulls. Their differences (except M4A3(105) cause of dipper) only in turret (like for T-34 and T-34-85).

Also M4A3(76), M4A2(76) and M4A3(76)HVSS have very common outward.


This
A_E
17 Jun 2018, 20:37 PM
#31
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2439 | Subs: 6

Completely agree.

The fuel tanks are the distinct thing that separates them to the layman coh player. Sure the eagle eye of the more astute viewer might spot the smaller cannon and other variances. But there's no point adding something like this for the sake of 'variation' when it risks confusing people.

I actually wish there was more things that separated the vehicles. Like camo netting and sandbags. I wish it was easier to tell at a glance for example which way the t70 is facing in the heat of battle.

I believe the game should do a better job of things like this.
17 Jun 2018, 20:51 PM
#32
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Unit recognition is part of mastering the game. The turrets are easy to distinguish instantly once you know what to look for.

Let's put them in another perspective. Are you seriously having trouble seeing the huge difference in turret size and shape? The completely different gun mantlet area?
Not to mention a distinct difference in engine noise and gun sound.


I'm saying it isn't 100000000000000% apparent, INSTANTLY. Units should not confuse people because they look just like another unit. Why don't we just make p4s look just like panthers and then keep the p4 stats. I'm sure people won't complain about that.

You also seemed to completely skip reading this
For the rest of us, this is about EASE when differentiating between the 2. Maxim spam back in the day wasn't undefeatable, but the EASE vs effectivness was outrageous between the 2 players.

Futhermore, what are we sacrificing by making the t34 variants MORE distinguishable? I highly doubt replayability is sky rocketing because of a slightly larger turret and barrel.

This is a similar concept to parepheral vision, which only picks up basic colors and shapes, as opposed to tunnel vision which can discern more.


The point is to be able to differentiate between different units without overall confusion. I have never seen ANYONE complain about shermans being indistinguishable. Point those people out to me if you see one.
17 Jun 2018, 21:03 PM
#33
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



I'm saying it isn't 100000000000000% apparent, INSTANTLY. Units should not confuse people because they look just like another unit. Why don't we just make p4s look just like panthers and then keep the p4 stats. I'm sure people won't complain about that.

You also seemed to completely skip reading this

The point is to be able to differentiate between different units without overall confusion. I have never seen ANYONE complain about shermans being indistinguishable. Point those people out to me if you see one.


Although most shermans are easy to distinguish, I'll give you a pair of models that couses lots of confusion: 75mm bulldozer with 105mm bulldozer. These two are in my experience mostly distinguished by other units that give a hint about commander choice. Other than that they are way too similar, yet I think I can live with that.

I feel the real problem with both bulldozer comparison and t-34 comparison is that there have been certain recent changes that made them harder to distinguish and thus people who relied on some parts of the tank to tell them apart did not get used to these changes yet.
17 Jun 2018, 21:40 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Makes one wonder how any axis player is mentally capable of distinguishing all the sherman variants which have the only difference of - you guessed it - turret and cannon.
17 Jun 2018, 21:43 PM
#35
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

The difference between the t34s and the shermans is that there are multiple versions of the same t34-76. You can have all three versions of the same looking tank on screen at the same time, from the same player, and when they are moving it is difficult to keep track of which is the more dangerous target.

18 Jun 2018, 03:28 AM
#36
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

But pz4 relic use ausf J model both ostheer (should be ausf H) and okw
By unknow reason
18 Jun 2018, 04:14 AM
#37
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

While we are at it can we get some better distinction between the kv series? Sometimes I try and engage a kv1 only to find out its a kv2 and I could have used my 222 instead of my panther
18 Jun 2018, 06:05 AM
#38
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jun 2018, 21:43 PMTobis
The difference between the t34s and the shermans is that there are multiple versions of the same t34-76. You can have all three versions of the same looking tank on screen at the same time, from the same player, and when they are moving it is difficult to keep track of which is the more dangerous target.



+1
18 Jun 2018, 06:14 AM
#39
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

This change could be reverted without any impact on gameplay to improve readability.
18 Jun 2018, 06:42 AM
#40
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6



I'm saying it isn't 100000000000000% apparent, INSTANTLY. Units should not confuse people because they look just like another unit. Why don't we just make p4s look just like panthers and then keep the p4 stats. I'm sure people won't complain about that.

You also seemed to completely skip reading this

The point is to be able to differentiate between different units without overall confusion. I have never seen ANYONE complain about shermans being indistinguishable. Point those people out to me if you see one.


I skipped reading that because I don't agree. Unit recognition is something players will have to learn, just like tactics. I could distinguish a T34-85 from a T34-76 100/100 times at first glance.

And how is this any different from a comparison like the M4A3 Sherman and M4A3(76) Sherman?
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