Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?
11 Sep 2013, 09:33 AM
#301
Posts: 1439
Just to clarify that was a 2v2 team game. 3 KV-8 and 1 PzIV was an outcome of a tank fight a moment before.
11 Sep 2013, 09:46 AM
#302
Posts: 62
KV-8 tickles PzIV with it's main gun, but Panzer IV doesn't do much more to KV-8 either. A KV-8 can just ignore a Panzer shooting at it and melt some more inf. And it's not like losing a KV-8 is a big deal, it's only slightly more expensive than Panzer IV. Too much butt armor imo.
11 Sep 2013, 09:48 AM
#303
Posts: 1439
KV-8 tickles PzIV with it's main gun, but Panzer IV doesn't do much more to KV-8 either. A KV-8 can just ignore a Panzer shooting at it and melt some more inf. And it's not like losing a KV-8 is a big deal, it's only slightly more expensive than Panzer IV. Too much butt armor imo.
This is just not true.
11 Sep 2013, 10:34 AM
#304
Posts: 480
My point was going for KV8 as Soviet commander, leaves you highly vulnerable to Armor. You still need to tech up to SU85's and shocks and conscripts aren't much of alternative. (you just spent 135 fuel with no real AT capabilities elsewhere, only counter for KV8 is armor. To me that is simple as 1+1=2 possible winners.
Do your damage with KV8 or type in GG)
Pulling something of KV8 capabilities, from German tier 4 with superb AT Double shreck PG's and supported by HMG. I can't see how else would that end up but GG............
You need SU85 as counter to brumbar (with KV8 capabilities) and SU85 has hard counter already on the field PG's. 1+1-1=1 winner only
In my opinion would just completely break balance....
I don't at all see how something coming from a high tier, expensive building is more powerful/less risky than getting it as an off-map, is all I was saying. Again, it's better than a Brummbar at almost everything (except AT, but even then, Brummbar AT is pretty mediocre and Brummbar armour is much worse) but much cheaper and doesn't require tech buildings. Just doesn't seem to fit in at all with the cost of comparably powerful, heavily-armoured vehicles.
Going straight to KV-8 is a bit risky, but slipping it into a T2-T3 or even a Shocks-T2-T4 build is very viable and not a huge investment (20 fuel and 40 manpower more than an Ostwind, say) and on account of the low cost and high damage it only really doesn't pay itself back if it's lost really quickly. It also absolutely requires tanks to counter it, whereas a Brummbar, which is much more expensive, you can push off with 2 AT guns if you have to.
11 Sep 2013, 11:05 AM
#305
Posts: 829
I don't at all see how something coming from a high tier, expensive building is more powerful/less risky than getting it as an off-map, is all I was saying. Again, it's better than a Brummbar at almost everything (except AT, but even then, Brummbar AT is pretty mediocre and Brummbar armour is much worse) but much cheaper and doesn't require tech buildings. Just doesn't seem to fit in at all with the cost of comparably powerful, heavily-armoured vehicles.
Going straight to KV-8 is a bit risky, but slipping it into a T2-T3 or even a Shocks-T2-T4 build is very viable and not a huge investment (20 fuel and 40 manpower more than an Ostwind, say) and on account of the low cost and high damage it only really doesn't pay itself back if it's lost really quickly. It also absolutely requires tanks to counter it, whereas a Brummbar, which is much more expensive, you can push off with 2 AT guns if you have to.
I agree with everything you said Blovski, except risk factor...
Getting KV8 asap is where you can do the damage (or shoot yourself in the foot). If you wait up to pull out t34 or T4-Su85, then the window for marauding all conquering KV8 is gone. Just becomes another unit, that can be dealt with easy. Easy to deal with as SU85 or Panther comparably.
as for Brummbar, I wasn't aiming really on how you get it, but rather where it lands into. And that is: strong and well rounded default German tier. Meaning, you have a lot of options with PG's, AT guns, you can go any direction you wish, regardless of Brumbar. You can choose any commander and call in units/abilities they come with, and Brumbar on top of it.
Having Brumbar as powerful as KV8, would just make Germans game braking OP.
Because you don't have to worry about getting AT to cover it. You already have powerful and Versatile tier 2 PG's to deal with Soviet countering with SU85 or T34's.
Thats why I think Devs, didn't make Brummbar instant killing machine as KV8
As far as KV8 looking at it in Vacuum, It definitely is OP. But, right now it doesn't break balance of the game as part of the commander it comes with. Choosing KV8 commander wont make you any more likely to win. At least, thats how i feel...
11 Sep 2013, 12:24 PM
#306
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
As far as KV8 looking at it in Vacuum, It definitely is OP.
And unless you are playing the game in a vacuum, its not risky at all. The fuel cost is cheaper than two T34/Pz4 which doesn't even take very long to get. Even if you do get a tank first, you are still looking at having a KV8 by around 14:00-15:00. The thing has more than enough armor+hp to survive long enough to retreat to your real anti tank units if you do get caught by another tank. And it isn't that important to use as "shock" unit. True it can almost instantly win the game if you catch the guy unprepared, but even if he does have anti tank it still really good for killing single squads without driving in to his base.
11 Sep 2013, 12:41 PM
#307
Posts: 62
This is just not true.
I'd show you a replay but I think it got eaten by the patch.
11 Sep 2013, 12:45 PM
#308
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedFrankly the attitudes that "KV8 is fine, L2P" in this thread are just making me mad.
I'm discontinuing discussion in this thread with people who have no interest in objective balance discussion.
Bye.
I'm discontinuing discussion in this thread with people who have no interest in objective balance discussion.
Bye.
11 Sep 2013, 12:46 PM
#309
Posts: 829
And unless you are playing the game in a vacuum, its not risky at all. The fuel cost is cheaper than two T34/Pz4 which doesn't even take very long to get. Even if you do get a tank first, you are still looking at having a KV8 by around 14:00-15:00. The thing has more than enough armor+hp to survive long enough to retreat to your real anti tank units if you do get caught by another tank. And it isn't that important to use as "shock" unit. True it can almost instantly win the game if you catch the guy unprepared, but even if he does have anti tank it still really good for killing single squads without driving in to his base.
Having to retreat KV8, to 'your real anti tank units' sort of negates KV8 as being problem. Doesn't it
11 Sep 2013, 13:07 PM
#310
Posts: 72
Frankly the attitudes that "KV8 is fine, L2P" in this thread are just making me mad.
I'm discontinuing discussion in this thread with people who have no interest in objective balance discussion.
Bye.
Maybe you should L2P, I said it before I'll say it again, spending all day in forums and watching live streams doesn't translate to actually playing the game.
Nullist doesn't know jackshit: Stats of a self proclaimed Expert http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197971504192
11 Sep 2013, 13:09 PM
#311
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
Not unless you decide to park it there in place for the rest of the game. Do you even play multiplayer? Since this thread has degraded to explaining the very basics, I'm done here.
Having to retreat KV8, to 'your real anti tank units' sort of negates KV8 as being problem. Doesn't it
11 Sep 2013, 13:13 PM
#312
Posts: 829
Not unless you decide to park it there in place for the rest of the game. Do you even play multiplayer? Since this thread has degraded to explaining the very basics, I'm done here.
I was thinking the same thing......
To me this sounds like: Piv is OP because I have to get some sort of AT weapon to kill it....
If I don't, it just wipes out my conscripts......
11 Sep 2013, 13:30 PM
#313
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
To me this sounds like: Piv is OP because I have to get some sort of AT weapon to kill it....
If I don't, it just wipes out my conscripts......
Why are you comparing a unit that kills squads almost instantly to a unit that rarely kills more than 2 men with one shot and misses very often. Just reinforces my point that-
this thread has degraded to explaining the very basics
11 Sep 2013, 13:36 PM
#314
Posts: 401
It may be that just mobile flame weapons are OP, as they are able to too easily chase down retreating units, or even get in their way, messing up pathfinding while constantly spraying flame.
Otherwise, the KV-8 seems fine. The same issue happens in early game with flamethrowers in M3s, thing is the M3 has a lot less health and armor.
Considering that in the balance patch stream yesterday, the balance designer specifically responded to a flame weapon question about retreating units, that's likely the bigger issue.
Otherwise, the KV-8 seems fine. The same issue happens in early game with flamethrowers in M3s, thing is the M3 has a lot less health and armor.
Considering that in the balance patch stream yesterday, the balance designer specifically responded to a flame weapon question about retreating units, that's likely the bigger issue.
11 Sep 2013, 17:28 PM
#315
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
It may be that just mobile flame weapons are OP, as they are able to too easily chase down retreating units, or even get in their way, messing up pathfinding while constantly spraying flame.
Otherwise, the KV-8 seems fine. The same issue happens in early game with flamethrowers in M3s, thing is the M3 has a lot less health and armor.
Considering that in the balance patch stream yesterday, the balance designer specifically responded to a flame weapon question about retreating units, that's likely the bigger issue.
the issue isnt the armor or health. those are fine, its a heavy tank. the issue is it deals 40 damage per hit. it takes at most, 2 seconds to kill an entity. no other flamer is that powerful. im not claiming the kv8 is a one man army. it obvoiusly gets countered by other tanks. good players solve that by using the kv8 with su85s. now your p4 counter is getting sniped by an su85 while it bounces shots off the kv8.
no one seems to respond to the actual stats. do you guys honestly think 40 damage for 5 seconds, with AOE and flame crits (that can also be caused by AOE, not just the primary target) is balanced? thats not rhetorical, i actually want to hear a response on that. the fact it is countered by tanks doesnt mean its not too powerful. look at the flame ht from beta. it got killed in 2 hits by AT guns, but its damage was still op, so it got nerfed. flame ht was never even close to this dps.
brummbar is very powerful as well but its not as consistent because flamers never miss. brummbar has no turret, much less armor, and less hp. brummbar is better against vehicles though. however the brummbar now costs 5 more gas and 320! more mp. thats practically twice the mp cost.
11 Sep 2013, 18:20 PM
#316
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedImo, Devs have simply, and humanely, "forgot" that KV8 is still at campaign level dps stats.
The FHT was exactly this kind of problem, and deservedly had its dps nerfed from campaign level stats, to MP level ones.
It ALSO, notablyl had its survival nerfed as well.
Now, I dont think KV8 needs a survival nerf, owing to timing, but its dps is still in a completely different frame of reference ie: in SP campaign level stats.
The FHT was exactly this kind of problem, and deservedly had its dps nerfed from campaign level stats, to MP level ones.
It ALSO, notablyl had its survival nerfed as well.
Now, I dont think KV8 needs a survival nerf, owing to timing, but its dps is still in a completely different frame of reference ie: in SP campaign level stats.
11 Sep 2013, 19:44 PM
#317
Posts: 72
Frankly the attitudes that "KV8 is fine, L2P" in this thread are just making me mad.
I'm discontinuing discussion in this thread with people who have no interest in objective balance discussion.
Bye.
Nullist doesn't know jackshit: Stats of a self proclaimed Expert http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197971504192
12 Sep 2013, 00:03 AM
#318
Posts: 1439
I'd show you a replay but I think it got eaten by the patch.
If this is true than you were doing something wrong. I have never had any problems killing KV-8 with PzIV. Have you been attacking from flank rather than at front? KV-8 is a heavy tank so the frontal armour is quite thick.
12 Sep 2013, 00:39 AM
#319
Posts: 829
Why are you comparing a unit that kills squads almost instantly to a unit that rarely kills more than 2 men with one shot and misses very often. Just reinforces my point that-
To point out fundamental flaw in your argument, your point is fair and correct but it breaks down on fundamental level.
Why are you comparing KV8 call in unit with Brummbar default tier unit in asymmetric faction designed game?
1+a=x doesn't necessarily equal 2. If you want to to talk numbers and code. Your maths works on fundamental level, if you assume value of a=1. There are other variables as well that give a different value to a.....
You want me to compare apple and orange, like for like. Only using parameters that show they are both fruit while ignoring other parameters and values
this thread has degraded to explaining the very basics
12 Sep 2013, 00:55 AM
#320
Posts: 829
the issue isnt the armor or health. those are fine, its a heavy tank. the issue is it deals 40 damage per hit. it takes at most, 2 seconds to kill an entity. no other flamer is that powerful. im not claiming the kv8 is a one man army. it obvoiusly gets countered by other tanks. good players solve that by using the kv8 with su85s. now your p4 counter is getting sniped by an su85 while it bounces shots off the kv8.
no one seems to respond to the actual stats. do you guys honestly think 40 damage for 5 seconds, with AOE and flame crits (that can also be caused by AOE, not just the primary target) is balanced? thats not rhetorical, i actually want to hear a response on that. the fact it is countered by tanks doesnt mean its not too powerful. look at the flame ht from beta. it got killed in 2 hits by AT guns, but its damage was still op, so it got nerfed. flame ht was never even close to this dps.
brummbar is very powerful as well but its not as consistent because flamers never miss. brummbar has no turret, much less armor, and less hp. brummbar is better against vehicles though. however the brummbar now costs 5 more gas and 320! more mp. thats practically twice the mp cost.
Do I think KV8 is OP, hell yeah. I hate seeing the damn thing on the field. It gives the biggest noob ability to force me to retreat/hide and forces me to tech/buy units I may not necessary wanted to go for.
Would I like to see KV8 nerfed? Yes, I would. Providing that commander it comes with gets properly balanced with nerfed KV8. Why, nerfed? for reasons I wrote ^ there.
Do I think KV8 makes commander, it comes with, OP? No, I don't. So far, other then pissing me off, I haven't noticed that I win or lose more games as direct result of KV8 being OP. In greater context of ultimately wining or losing the game, I haven't noticed that I lose 60%+ of games when I face Kv8 commander .
This to me, makes perfect sense. I simply can live with KV8, despite not liking to see it face me...
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