Pgrens seem like they have been flipped on their head

V2.0 Proposal

PGrens cost 280 manpower, are deployed with 2x kar90s 2x stgs as standard, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices: 80 muni or 40 muni at vet 1

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

4x stgs, bundle nade, and booby traps.

I would rather see a upgrade in t2 "better training" or something like that and it would give them for example 10% RA and 10% damage buff. Would be like a blacksmith upgrades in Age of Empires.

OK how about we remove the mg34 in my proposal and give them stgs with ambush? Also make them 300mp but increase the upgrade cost.

See, here is a trick. You can't give them ambush becouse it's already in a commander choice. Giving them any AI upgrade would inflict a price reduction.

This is a hard unit to balance and design. There was many ideas to make it better: smoke nade, ability to mark target for vehicules etc. (which both weren't so bad imo). The goal is to make it more accessible and desirable unit in ostheer strat.

I think the problem is that the basic squads with weapon upgrades are so efficient that there is almost no room for elite infantry across all factions, it isn't exclusive to pgrens.

Basicly this.

This unit is fine until allies get upgraded, vetted squads. Biggest issue is how to make short/mid range unit without any AI upgrade that it could compete with other elite squads like guards (with dps upgrade), double lmg rifle or tommies.

guards laugh about the performanche from pgrens...while cost the same and need less muni for upgrading and can slow armor

Guards:

-are doctrinal
-require additional 75 muni upgrade
-have completely different profile(aka not short ranged assault squad)
-belong to army that have poor stock long range damage
-come NOWHERE close to AT potential of shreck PGs.

And the biggest difference:
Soviet elite infantry is supposed to become their mainline infantry late game once you lose all your cons.
Ost elite infantry are force multipliers, NOT gren replacements.

Guards:

-are doctrinal
-require additional 75 muni upgrade
-have completely different profile(aka not short ranged assault squad)
-belong to army that have poor stock long range damage
-come NOWHERE close to AT potential of shreck PGs.

And the biggest difference:
Soviet elite infantry is supposed to become their mainline infantry late game once you lose all your cons.
Ost elite infantry are force multipliers, NOT gren replacements.

None elite infantry should be a mainline infantry in any stage of a game.

Plus all worth getting soviet commanders have guards. That's not an argument. Guards are doctrinal so they can do massive damage to infantry, can fight AI and AT in same time (so no disadvantage like pgrens have - getting shreks -> no AI capabilites)? seems legit. But guards aren't the topic of this thread so leave it be.

Guards:

-are doctrinal
-require additional 75 muni upgrade
-have completely different profile(aka not short ranged assault squad)
-belong to army that have poor stock long range damage
-come NOWHERE close to AT potential of shreck PGs.

And the biggest difference:
Soviet elite infantry is supposed to become their mainline infantry late game once you lose all your cons.
Ost elite infantry are force multipliers, NOT gren replacements.

- guards are in the most useable commander
- pgrens needs 120 muni ... in new i think 100muni to fight armor...and gets from now useless vs infantery
- profile isnt a physical law...mods can change them. why cant pgrens be effective vs both targets like penals and guards? they cost the same OR EVEN MORE!
- lel. penals are avery good long range unit...even on the move. and your mainline infanetry can sprint! use it!
- you underestimated the dmg from guards vs armor ...pgrens misses a lot...and hell they misses a lot more on far targets.

V2.0 Proposal

PGrens cost 280 manpower, are deployed with 2x kar90s 2x stgs as standard, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices: 80 muni or 40 muni at vet 1

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

4x stgs, bundle nade, and booby traps.

I don't get the point. Lack of role? they have 4 assault rifles and excel in mid range and flanks, surely removing half the StG's until upgrade just makes them have less of a real defined role if anything.

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I think increasing the damaged output of the squad for each unit killed would help offset the units tendency to drop a model and thus be useless.

Maybe 10-15% damage increase for each model.

That or give them armour.

My suggestion would be:

1) Lower build time reinforcement time.
(actually standardize these values for categories from slower to faster
Support weapon
elite
mainline
auxiliary)

2) Lower cost have them start less powerful (2 st44 2 mp?) allow weapon upgrades. (2 Stg44 or +1+1 shreck?)

3) Allow them earlier access. This could be achieved by making t2 cheaper BP1 more expensive and (similar total cost) allowing t2 being built with PG only access, rest of units require BP1.

4) G43 upgrade now replaces all weapon, DPS adjusted. For Pgs it allow +1 model.

5) Remove sprint from camo (that goes for all unit.) Camo should be used for static ambush not for chasing enemy units.
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6) Replace their vet 1 ability, with a ability increasing synergy with vehicles (timed DPS or durability buffed?)

The solution would be to make it so they have a defined role past just being a jack of all trades master of none. Or make them much more powerful but at a greater cost.

Stormtroopers have the same problem as PGrens. In fact a lot of the problems in this game have stemmed from ill defined elite infantry, and balance being tied to poor design. Extensive reworks are probably necessary. I consider penal batallions as a product of an extensive rework, where they now have well defined roles, although Strafniki are meant to die not be elite

True for 1v1. 2v2+ not so much. Stormtroopers are actually very goot with STG upgrade, their tactical assault ability (or whatever the name is) makes them insanely good at flanking units. They get tons of wipes against retreating units or teamweapons. They are just right and definitly don´t need buffs. In a way they are like Paratroopers, underused because people don´t really know how to use them right or are just too lazy and prefer blobbing.

Regarding Pgrens...They are a solid unit. Not really that good in 1v1 but 2v2+ they are just right. If they get buffed we´d just see huge Pgren blobs running around. Again great flanking unit. Not a unit that you can just a-move around effectivly. They are effective vs PPSH cons and counter them well. They are also good vs UKF because infantry sections are just helpless if they get into CQC combat. Sure they aren´t really that good on open maps like Crossing in the Woods where it´s hard to flank/surprise people but on maps like Arnhem, Semoisky, Poltawa, Winnekendonk they are actually very effective and hard to deal with.

Pgrens can´t be truly elite infantry like Obers because they come way too early for that. Maybe make them a 250MP/25 fuel side-tech in T2 and make them a 400 MP AI unit with Obersoldaten like performance but more specialized on CQC and mid-range combat.

Give them a small buff near armour make it better at vet 1 and they are fine

PGrens are already one of the best units in game design wise. Please don't try to break them.

Personally I would like to see the Panzershrecks being a two-staged upgrade so the player can choose to keep some AI (50 munis for one shreck) or to go full AT (second shreck for another 50 munis). Either that or an ability to put away the shrecks, but that might be OP (too convenient).

Personally I would like to see the Panzershrecks being a two-staged upgrade so the player can choose to keep some AI (50 munis for one shreck) or to go full AT (second shreck for another 50 munis).

Did you know that this was actually the initial design? Relic changed it back in the beta becouse it made them amazing blob component. I feel they are all right in the current version.

If you think they are too weak, you need to watch how good they were in abusive hands of captainsprice.

Honestly I feel PGs are in a good spot. They aren't brainless attack move like Guards or fragile like Commandos. They fulfill a spot as a defensive squad that protects your Grenadiers from being rushed and covering your flanks which they excel at. Seriously if someone goes Con spam I get one single PG squad which hard counters conscripts and let's Grenadiers do their long range damage. Same with USF Riflemen as PG's do great for defending your Grenadiers from being rushed down.

Only problem I find with is the purchase price but aside from that they do fine. Especially given you don't have to invest in any munitions into to make them effective against enemy infantry which allows you to focus upgrades on your Grenadiers or other munition purchases. Only faction I find PG don't perform well against is Brits due them being a long range oriented faction unless they go flamer sappers.

They have a specific purpose and offer something Grenadiers can't which is close to mid range power, close range grenade with good wipe potential, good RA, and finally not having to invest munitions to make them shine.

PGrens are good squads when they're at four models. Buffing the squad outright risks turning them into something unpleasant.

PGrens have a similar problem to Shock Troops: they're fairly short range units with their damage output evenly distributed across the squad.

Most late game squads are upgraded with one or two slot weapons like an LMG or a pair of G43s. These are much less punishing to lose models from because most of the squad's damage output is in those slot weapons. If you drop a model from an LMG Gren squad you lose a basic rifle. No big deal. If you drop a single model from a PGren model that's 25% of your damage output wiped out.

The solution to this is already in the game.

PGrens have a similar problem to Shock Troops: they're fairly short range units with their damage output evenly distributed across the squad.

Pgrens are not short range. Their perform best at mid range and are fairly good at long and short ranges.

As for the zeal, I think it is not needed. It is true that they suffer from taking too much damage but that is exactly what makes them unique and fun to use - the incentive to always stick to green cover.

you underestimated the dmg from guards vs armor ...pgrens misses a lot...and hell they misses a lot more on far targets.

Reminder that this was nerfed during the last patch. Deflection took a nerf from 20 > 10. Unless you are hitting the rear, you are not doing as much as before.


The surprising factor with PGs, is that as long as they don't introduce more cheese/clutches (and actually nerf them) to other factions, they will keep getting better as they are solid.

Did you know that this was actually the initial design? Relic changed it back in the beta becouse it made them amazing blob component. I feel they are all right in the current version.

Does 1 shrek less made such a big diffrence? They aren't so cheap as volks-shrek blob used to

We all mostly agreed that Pgrens are fine, ok unit but then why is that this unit is so rarely used?

pgrens are to expansive for that what you get. 4models squad with only AI OR AT use.
look what you get for 360MP as sov.

if pgrens should have sprint as normal abilty....it would be ok for this pricetag.

pgrens are to expansive for that what you get. 4models squad with only AI OR AT use.
look what you get for 360MP as sov.

if pgrens should have sprint as normal abilty....it would be ok for this pricetag.

PGs do not cost 360mp.