This is a pretty simple one. While they don't have the wipe potential of normal grenades, it's hard to deny the tactical utility of flame nades on volks for map control, to the extent that their arrival was delayed slightly in the last patch.
Since the leig is now quite useful (and mechanised can handle garrisons in other ways), should the flame nade become an optional side upgrade with a similar cost to allied grenade unlocks?
I'd argue that volks are quite potent for their cost, and this could introduce a bit of diversity to the early game in regards to light vehicle rushes vs boosting infantry.
To address a couple of possible counter-points:
"Axis aren't meant to unlock grenades. Only Allies"
I think we're a bit past hard and fast themes. A lot of them have been undone because of severe balance issues, especially for the WFA.
"Sturmpios should get flame nades instead"
This would likely make sturmpios far too effective at closing in and wiping displaced squads. But I wouldn't be opposed to testing it in a balance mod.
Give OKW flame nade a tech cost?
27 May 2018, 03:38 AM
#1
Posts: 769 | Subs: 1
Some of my COH2 Guides:
| The COH2 System Performance Guide | The COH2 FAQ |
27 May 2018, 03:56 AM
#2
1 
Posts: 1276
I'd say yes for a tech cost but I feel like it should be cheaper than 25 fuel (tbh its super high for USF, can we get that down too?) and more around 15 fuel and maybe 100~200MP and unlocked via base HQ as to not lock it behind certain techs.
27 May 2018, 06:55 AM
#3
Posts: 1930
just put it behind one of the building.
27 May 2018, 07:14 AM
#4
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
If you go that way, I'll put the combo STG and flamnade behind paywall, not necessarily expensive but enough to force the player make a choice between fast LV or upgrade your volks.
27 May 2018, 07:40 AM
#5
Posts: 769 | Subs: 1
just put it behind one of the building.
It feels to me like too much of OKW already does that, and it struggles to get certain units out as a result, especially if you want to go mechanised. The fuel and time cost to unlock basic stuff like the MG34 is challenging. This proposal would maybe create a less linear faction. Also, once you have teched there are other options anyway (such as leig).
A better midway for timed unlocks might be shifting more of the fuel cost to the actual trucks and making them slower to build.
If you go that way, I'll put the combo STG and flamnade behind paywall, not necessarily expensive but enough to force the player make a choice between fast LV or upgrade your volks.
Although the STGs are certainly an easy and effective upgrade, I'm less concerned with them due the inherent tradeoff of not being able to pick up anything else for the rest of the game.
Some of my COH2 Guides:
| The COH2 System Performance Guide | The COH2 FAQ |
27 May 2018, 07:49 AM
#6
Posts: 587
I know flamenades are a problem, but you are forced to get them as a garrison clearing tool.
If that is delayed (too) much, okw can get locked-down on certain maps.
Either make the nade only throwable on garrisons (ugly fix) or just get rid of it all together and make flamethrower non-doc on sturms.
If that is delayed (too) much, okw can get locked-down on certain maps.
Either make the nade only throwable on garrisons (ugly fix) or just get rid of it all together and make flamethrower non-doc on sturms.
Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
27 May 2018, 08:04 AM
#7
Posts: 769 | Subs: 1
I know flamenades are a problem, but you are forced to get them as a garrison clearing tool.
If that is delayed (too) much, okw can get locked-down on certain maps.
Either make the nade only throwable on garrisons (ugly fix) or just get rid of it all together and make flamethrower non-doc on sturms.
Sure. They totally need to be available to deal with locked down garrisons but I feel like currently OKW don't have to worry about taking buildings first like other factions do. They can just steal them later after capturing the rest of the map. They're a crutch.
But the whole point of this idea is that it removes them from the delayed teching of OKW and makes them available early if necessary (like, 20 fuel max), but at a slight delay to other tech instead of being automatically provided every single game. And if you play well enough that you don't need them, you can rush a light vehicle instead.
Some of my COH2 Guides:
| The COH2 System Performance Guide | The COH2 FAQ |
27 May 2018, 08:07 AM
#8
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
All incendiary grenades should not be available to mainline infantry but moved to specialized units.
Connecting OKW tech to set up buildings is bad because truck placement is map depended.
I really see little reason against OKW Side tech.
SP concussion grenade could be redesigned to do have extra affects vs garrison/heavy cover and be available earlier.
Connecting OKW tech to set up buildings is bad because truck placement is map depended.
I really see little reason against OKW Side tech.
SP concussion grenade could be redesigned to do have extra affects vs garrison/heavy cover and be available earlier.
27 May 2018, 08:16 AM
#9
Posts: 587
Sure. They totally need to be available to deal with locked down garrisons but I feel like currently OKW don't have to worry about taking buildings first like other factions do. They can just steal them later after capturing the rest of the map. They're a crutch.
Map and player level dependant, but when you rush building A and okw rush building B, you get building A locked down and with an mg in there (vickers or maxim come early enough) okw is boned.
But the whole point of this idea is that it removes them from the delayed teching of OKW and makes them available early if necessary (like, 20 fuel max), but at a slight delay to other tech instead of being automatically provided every single game. And if you play well enough that you don't need them, you can rush a light vehicle instead.
So, what exactly are you thinking? Cut of 20 fuel from teching and move it to side-tech? If the ratio is less than that, it is basicly a forced choice on certain maps while others it will be ignored, the fomer of which is bad gameplay.
If it is exactly as put, luchs and flak ht timing will become an issue (again) or the flame nades will just arrive at the same time as now (getting a truck is 100 mp and 15 iirc).
I prefer a flamer on sturms tbh, since that works well with the original factions.
Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
27 May 2018, 08:27 AM
#10
Posts: 769 | Subs: 1
If it is exactly as put, luchs and flak ht timing will become an issue (again)
That is a fair point. Obviously other factions have optional side techs that can delay their vehicles, but they probably aren't as essential as a garrison clearer.
Some of my COH2 Guides:
| The COH2 System Performance Guide | The COH2 FAQ |
27 May 2018, 10:22 AM
#11
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
The other solution is to give them to Sturmpioneer vet0 and remove their other grenade. Volks can live without grenade, they already can build their own cover.
27 May 2018, 11:57 AM
#12
Posts: 3260
How about we move them from Volksgrenadiers to...
...ukf
...ukf
27 May 2018, 12:29 PM
#13
1 
Posts: 2885
Where is the option that volks should never get incendiary granades in the first place? 
27 May 2018, 14:30 PM
#14
Posts: 5279
OKW have a starting unit with STGs THAT should be the go to for garrison clearing. Tone down their potency slightly in the open and give them a small modifier VS garrisons. It's a 4 man squad with a larger target size than Tommy's so it's hardly going to be unmanageable to focus fire them. Flame nades are a lazy approach that gives more than clear garrisons it can also deny cover and that's a pretty strong ability for volks (it's fine on cons because of all their drawbacks)
#stalinwept
27 May 2018, 15:35 PM
#15
Posts: 808
whats with all these complicated approaches? just replace flame nades with model 24 grenades, and move flame nades to the Feuersturm doctrine
27 May 2018, 16:24 PM
#16
Posts: 1930
It feels to me like too much of OKW already does that, and it struggles to get certain units out as a result, especially if you want to go mechanised. The fuel and time cost to unlock basic stuff like the MG34 is challenging. This proposal would maybe create a less linear faction. Also, once you have teched there are other options anyway (such as leig).
one of the building as in it will unlock by putting down a building.
like the patch initially was going to do.
27 May 2018, 19:31 PM
#17
Posts: 518
OST has Flamethrower,SU has Flamethrower,USF has mortar,UKF has Universal Carrier which can be equipped with an flamethrower + Infantry Section (performs pretty well against Garrisons if in cover). OKW only has Flamenade which now needs a truck on the field to be used,has a timer,costs a lot of ammo (compared to Flamethrowers which only need to be upgraded once and can be used for the rest of the game)and doesn't really do that much damage and now you wanna lock it behind an Upgrade ? This would basicly ruin OKW . Either you get your infantry locked down by enemy Garrisons since you can not counter them or you will delay your tanks so much that you better press "Surrender" instead of fighting a battle which is already lost .
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
28 May 2018, 05:49 AM
#18
Posts: 1289
OST has Flamethrower,SU has Flamethrower,USF has mortar,UKF has Universal Carrier which can be equipped with an flamethrower + Infantry Section (performs pretty well against Garrisons if in cover). OKW only has Flamenade which now needs a truck on the field to be used,has a timer,costs a lot of ammo (compared to Flamethrowers which only need to be upgraded once and can be used for the rest of the game)and doesn't really do that much damage and now you wanna lock it behind an Upgrade ? This would basicly ruin OKW . Either you get your infantry locked down by enemy Garrisons since you can not counter them or you will delay your tanks so much that you better press "Surrender" instead of fighting a battle which is already lost .
Okw has the strongest starting unit wich can put away its sweepers. Okw can exert the most pressure early on with sturms. They have t0 at. They have a light vehicle that can cap and shoot without vet and doctrines. They have extremely cost efficient volk and top of that obers in the highest tier. And the only faction with non doc super heavy.
So okw being helpess because luchs arrives later? I dont think so.
That said i dont want to put the flame nade behind tech. The timer on them has done the job. I just wish the stg44,s becoame a trade off instead of being a no brainer.
28 May 2018, 20:05 PM
#19
Posts: 518
Okw has the strongest starting unit
If you ignore Brits ... yes .
wich can put away its sweepers
If you upgrade them with Sweepers you will lack AT for infantry
Okw can exert the most pressure early on with sturms. They have t0 at. They have a light vehicle that can cap and shoot without vet and doctrines. They have extremely cost efficient volk and top of that obers in the highest tier. And the only faction with non doc super heavy.
So okw being helpess because luchs arrives later? I dont think so.
That said i dont want to put the flame nade behind tech. The timer on them has done the job. I just wish the stg44,s becoame a trade off instead of being a no brainer.
OKWs AT gun is a total joke,Kübel can get destroyed very easy,Volks struggle against Infantry Section,Rifles and even Conscipts also I do not get how "and top of that obers in the highest tier" is somthing positive about OKW ... this would mean that it is positive getting Infantry by a time where infantry isn't that usefull anymore and OKW is not the only fraction with non doc heavys ... Brits can get even multiple ones (and btw.KT isn't anymore what it used to be) ... but no matter this has nothing to do with the fact that OKW will lack Anti garrison tools when you put Flamenade behind tech . Even a cost of 25 fuel for the Flamenade Tech will delay the Luchs so much that is will come after AEC
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
28 May 2018, 20:22 PM
#20
Posts: 495 | Subs: 1
All incendiary grenades should not be available to mainline infantry but moved to specialized units.
Connecting OKW tech to set up buildings is bad because truck placement is map depended.
I really see little reason against OKW Side tech.
SP concussion grenade could be redesigned to do have extra affects vs garrison/heavy cover and be available earlier.
Or give Sturm Pios the flame nade at vet 0 that upgrades to a stun/flame nade at vet 3 and give Volks a free model 24 stick grenade that does less damage than the paid for (US and British) or doctrinal (Soviet) grenades, but has slightly more range. Not as much range as Grenadier rifle grenades, but it’s free and Volks are supposed to be the German less effective but more durable base infantry when compared to Wher Grenadiers.
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