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Give OKW flame nade a tech cost?

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Should the OKW incendiary grenade have tech cost to unlock it first?
Option Distribution Votes
34%
66%
Total votes: 73
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
27 May 2018, 03:38 AM
#1
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

This is a pretty simple one. While they don't have the wipe potential of normal grenades, it's hard to deny the tactical utility of flame nades on volks for map control, to the extent that their arrival was delayed slightly in the last patch.

Since the leig is now quite useful (and mechanised can handle garrisons in other ways), should the flame nade become an optional side upgrade with a similar cost to allied grenade unlocks?

I'd argue that volks are quite potent for their cost, and this could introduce a bit of diversity to the early game in regards to light vehicle rushes vs boosting infantry.


To address a couple of possible counter-points:

"Axis aren't meant to unlock grenades. Only Allies"
I think we're a bit past hard and fast themes. A lot of them have been undone because of severe balance issues, especially for the WFA.

"Sturmpios should get flame nades instead"
This would likely make sturmpios far too effective at closing in and wiping displaced squads. But I wouldn't be opposed to testing it in a balance mod.
27 May 2018, 03:56 AM
#2
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

I'd say yes for a tech cost but I feel like it should be cheaper than 25 fuel (tbh its super high for USF, can we get that down too?) and more around 15 fuel and maybe 100~200MP and unlocked via base HQ as to not lock it behind certain techs.



27 May 2018, 06:55 AM
#3
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

just put it behind one of the building.
27 May 2018, 07:14 AM
#4
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

If you go that way, I'll put the combo STG and flamnade behind paywall, not necessarily expensive but enough to force the player make a choice between fast LV or upgrade your volks.
27 May 2018, 07:40 AM
#5
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

just put it behind one of the building.


It feels to me like too much of OKW already does that, and it struggles to get certain units out as a result, especially if you want to go mechanised. The fuel and time cost to unlock basic stuff like the MG34 is challenging. This proposal would maybe create a less linear faction. Also, once you have teched there are other options anyway (such as leig).

A better midway for timed unlocks might be shifting more of the fuel cost to the actual trucks and making them slower to build.

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 07:14 AMEsxile
If you go that way, I'll put the combo STG and flamnade behind paywall, not necessarily expensive but enough to force the player make a choice between fast LV or upgrade your volks.


Although the STGs are certainly an easy and effective upgrade, I'm less concerned with them due the inherent tradeoff of not being able to pick up anything else for the rest of the game.
27 May 2018, 07:49 AM
#6
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

I know flamenades are a problem, but you are forced to get them as a garrison clearing tool.

If that is delayed (too) much, okw can get locked-down on certain maps.

Either make the nade only throwable on garrisons (ugly fix) or just get rid of it all together and make flamethrower non-doc on sturms.
27 May 2018, 08:04 AM
#7
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 07:49 AMzarok47
I know flamenades are a problem, but you are forced to get them as a garrison clearing tool.

If that is delayed (too) much, okw can get locked-down on certain maps.

Either make the nade only throwable on garrisons (ugly fix) or just get rid of it all together and make flamethrower non-doc on sturms.


Sure. They totally need to be available to deal with locked down garrisons but I feel like currently OKW don't have to worry about taking buildings first like other factions do. They can just steal them later after capturing the rest of the map. They're a crutch.

But the whole point of this idea is that it removes them from the delayed teching of OKW and makes them available early if necessary (like, 20 fuel max), but at a slight delay to other tech instead of being automatically provided every single game. And if you play well enough that you don't need them, you can rush a light vehicle instead.
27 May 2018, 08:07 AM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

All incendiary grenades should not be available to mainline infantry but moved to specialized units.

Connecting OKW tech to set up buildings is bad because truck placement is map depended.

I really see little reason against OKW Side tech.

SP concussion grenade could be redesigned to do have extra affects vs garrison/heavy cover and be available earlier.
27 May 2018, 08:16 AM
#9
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 08:04 AMCyanara

Sure. They totally need to be available to deal with locked down garrisons but I feel like currently OKW don't have to worry about taking buildings first like other factions do. They can just steal them later after capturing the rest of the map. They're a crutch.


Map and player level dependant, but when you rush building A and okw rush building B, you get building A locked down and with an mg in there (vickers or maxim come early enough) okw is boned.


jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 08:04 AMCyanara

But the whole point of this idea is that it removes them from the delayed teching of OKW and makes them available early if necessary (like, 20 fuel max), but at a slight delay to other tech instead of being automatically provided every single game. And if you play well enough that you don't need them, you can rush a light vehicle instead.


So, what exactly are you thinking? Cut of 20 fuel from teching and move it to side-tech? If the ratio is less than that, it is basicly a forced choice on certain maps while others it will be ignored, the fomer of which is bad gameplay.

If it is exactly as put, luchs and flak ht timing will become an issue (again) or the flame nades will just arrive at the same time as now (getting a truck is 100 mp and 15 iirc).

I prefer a flamer on sturms tbh, since that works well with the original factions.
27 May 2018, 08:27 AM
#10
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 08:16 AMzarok47

If it is exactly as put, luchs and flak ht timing will become an issue (again)


That is a fair point. Obviously other factions have optional side techs that can delay their vehicles, but they probably aren't as essential as a garrison clearer.
27 May 2018, 10:22 AM
#11
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

The other solution is to give them to Sturmpioneer vet0 and remove their other grenade. Volks can live without grenade, they already can build their own cover.
27 May 2018, 11:57 AM
#12
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

How about we move them from Volksgrenadiers to...

...ukf
27 May 2018, 12:29 PM
#13
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Where is the option that volks should never get incendiary granades in the first place? ;)
27 May 2018, 14:30 PM
#14
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

OKW have a starting unit with STGs THAT should be the go to for garrison clearing. Tone down their potency slightly in the open and give them a small modifier VS garrisons. It's a 4 man squad with a larger target size than Tommy's so it's hardly going to be unmanageable to focus fire them. Flame nades are a lazy approach that gives more than clear garrisons it can also deny cover and that's a pretty strong ability for volks (it's fine on cons because of all their drawbacks)
27 May 2018, 15:35 PM
#15
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

whats with all these complicated approaches? just replace flame nades with model 24 grenades, and move flame nades to the Feuersturm doctrine
27 May 2018, 16:24 PM
#16
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 07:40 AMCyanara


It feels to me like too much of OKW already does that, and it struggles to get certain units out as a result, especially if you want to go mechanised. The fuel and time cost to unlock basic stuff like the MG34 is challenging. This proposal would maybe create a less linear faction. Also, once you have teched there are other options anyway (such as leig).


one of the building as in it will unlock by putting down a building.

like the patch initially was going to do.
27 May 2018, 19:31 PM
#17
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

OST has Flamethrower,SU has Flamethrower,USF has mortar,UKF has Universal Carrier which can be equipped with an flamethrower + Infantry Section (performs pretty well against Garrisons if in cover). OKW only has Flamenade which now needs a truck on the field to be used,has a timer,costs a lot of ammo (compared to Flamethrowers which only need to be upgraded once and can be used for the rest of the game)and doesn't really do that much damage and now you wanna lock it behind an Upgrade ? This would basicly ruin OKW . Either you get your infantry locked down by enemy Garrisons since you can not counter them or you will delay your tanks so much that you better press "Surrender" instead of fighting a battle which is already lost .
28 May 2018, 05:49 AM
#18
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

OST has Flamethrower,SU has Flamethrower,USF has mortar,UKF has Universal Carrier which can be equipped with an flamethrower + Infantry Section (performs pretty well against Garrisons if in cover). OKW only has Flamenade which now needs a truck on the field to be used,has a timer,costs a lot of ammo (compared to Flamethrowers which only need to be upgraded once and can be used for the rest of the game)and doesn't really do that much damage and now you wanna lock it behind an Upgrade ? This would basicly ruin OKW . Either you get your infantry locked down by enemy Garrisons since you can not counter them or you will delay your tanks so much that you better press "Surrender" instead of fighting a battle which is already lost .


Okw has the strongest starting unit wich can put away its sweepers. Okw can exert the most pressure early on with sturms. They have t0 at. They have a light vehicle that can cap and shoot without vet and doctrines. They have extremely cost efficient volk and top of that obers in the highest tier. And the only faction with non doc super heavy.
So okw being helpess because luchs arrives later? I dont think so.

That said i dont want to put the flame nade behind tech. The timer on them has done the job. I just wish the stg44,s becoame a trade off instead of being a no brainer.
28 May 2018, 20:05 PM
#19
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



Okw has the strongest starting unit


If you ignore Brits ... yes .


wich can put away its sweepers


If you upgrade them with Sweepers you will lack AT for infantry


Okw can exert the most pressure early on with sturms. They have t0 at. They have a light vehicle that can cap and shoot without vet and doctrines. They have extremely cost efficient volk and top of that obers in the highest tier. And the only faction with non doc super heavy.
So okw being helpess because luchs arrives later? I dont think so.

That said i dont want to put the flame nade behind tech. The timer on them has done the job. I just wish the stg44,s becoame a trade off instead of being a no brainer.


OKWs AT gun is a total joke,Kübel can get destroyed very easy,Volks struggle against Infantry Section,Rifles and even Conscipts also I do not get how "and top of that obers in the highest tier" is somthing positive about OKW ... this would mean that it is positive getting Infantry by a time where infantry isn't that usefull anymore and OKW is not the only fraction with non doc heavys ... Brits can get even multiple ones (and btw.KT isn't anymore what it used to be) ... but no matter this has nothing to do with the fact that OKW will lack Anti garrison tools when you put Flamenade behind tech . Even a cost of 25 fuel for the Flamenade Tech will delay the Luchs so much that is will come after AEC
28 May 2018, 20:22 PM
#20
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2018, 08:07 AMVipper
All incendiary grenades should not be available to mainline infantry but moved to specialized units.

Connecting OKW tech to set up buildings is bad because truck placement is map depended.

I really see little reason against OKW Side tech.

SP concussion grenade could be redesigned to do have extra affects vs garrison/heavy cover and be available earlier.


Or give Sturm Pios the flame nade at vet 0 that upgrades to a stun/flame nade at vet 3 and give Volks a free model 24 stick grenade that does less damage than the paid for (US and British) or doctrinal (Soviet) grenades, but has slightly more range. Not as much range as Grenadier rifle grenades, but it’s free and Volks are supposed to be the German less effective but more durable base infantry when compared to Wher Grenadiers.
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