Sniper Role Overhaul

Jump back to quoted post22 Apr 2018, 08:20 AMKatitof

However the problem is existence of snipers in CoH all together.
I never understood why they went with super expensive very high risk and reward unit for early game instead of specialized squad or light vehicle.

PE ATHT anyone? Now THAT was a sniper done right, potent, very counterable, fun to play with and unique.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:45 AMzarok47

Do we need snipers in coh?

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:45 AMzarok47

You obviously put a lot of thought into this and I would be happy to discuss it with you.
However, the question no one can answer, should be asked here:

Do we need snipers in coh?

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:59 AMEsxile

To me, the answer is no. But Reco squad such OKW Jaegers or USF Pathinders have their place in the gameplay.

The only thing I would keep from the proposal is making sniper only being able to snipe models below a certain % of life. The suppression proposal smell OP, remembering me old kubel.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:45 AMzarok47

You obviously put a lot of thought into this and I would be happy to discuss it with you.
However, the question no one can answer, should be asked here:

Do we need snipers in coh?

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:31 AMSerrith

Because the suppression lasts less time then the reload of the sniper, the sniper will be incapable of keeping an enemy squad suppressed indefinitely by itself.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 14:11 PMelchino7

Not that the idea doesn't have merit, but it is something more towards a future CoH3. Which in that case, i'll rather they move towards a model on which snipers works with a %HP crit threshold so they must work in tandem with another units rather than been stand alone man power attrition armies.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 13:43 PMferwiner

We have two original factions that are designed around combined arms, which means they need to support their weaker infantry with support units. Mind that out of 3 main support units: mgs, snipers and mortars, its the sniper that is most fun to play. I'm pretty sure everybody can agree that game was in a pretty bad state when mg spam was in the meta. Mortars are brainless and thus they don't really fit top tier gameplay. Removing snipers would mean these two factions are either left with going back to mgs and mortars or spamming infantry. Is that the direction we want to go?

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 15:54 PMZombiFrancis

I would say we've got about 0.5 factions left designed around combined arms. Even Ostheer has been increasingly punished for team weapon play; they already are pushed into spamming infantry or mgs/mortars. And against the arsenal of the three allied factions, the ostheer sniper is really only useful against one.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 14:25 PMferwiner

This idea has already been tested in WFA and people seem to use these sniper units rarely. In theory they have crit chance, more sniper rifles and lower chance of getting wiped. In practice, their performance if very RNG dependent and they don't let you win your engagement any better than another supporting infantry squad would. This is because they can't decrease enemy dps in whole engagement by sniping one model when it begins like EFA snipers were designed to.

There is much easier way to remove the "one man army" snipers from the game while keeping their support role. All one needs to do is making them slightly slower than other infantry, so they can't soft retreat when unsupported.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 17:51 PMthedarkarmadillo

Doctrinal/nondocrinal. You will always see units that players have natural access to mire than those that require a dedication

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 18:32 PMferwiner

I don't think this argument is valid in this case. Think of pathfinders. The airborne commander has been in meta multiple times thanks to its ability to supplement usf tech tree. Yet, pathfinders seem to be used only in troll strategies.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 19:38 PMthedarkarmadillo

Iirc pathfinders crit at 40% health or something like that meaning the opportunity to sniper models is less and USF is a faction that any problems you have arw better solved by throwing another rifle squad on the blob over diversifying your units. Why add a unit that can model snipe and little else when you can have a squad you can attack move with the rest and snare and throw grenades and and and and.... You will find any unit that uses a different tactic than brute force will fall by the way side for usf.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 19:42 PMferwiner

Yeah, that is exactly what I said. These units didn't work out, because there is nothing in them that is better than another infantry squad. Now if you had a real sniper doctrinally, you would definitely want it in the mix.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 19:38 PMthedarkarmadillo

Iirc pathfinders crit at 40% health or something like that meaning the opportunity to sniper models is less and USF is a faction that any problems you have arw better solved by throwing another rifle squad on the blob over diversifying your units. Why add a unit that can model snipe and little else when you can have a squad you can attack move with the rest and snare and throw grenades and and and and.... You will find any unit that uses a different tactic than brute force will fall by the way side for usf.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 10:31 AMSerrith

Snipers are potentially getting a bit of a shake up in the newest patch, particularly the soviet sniper and naturally there is heated discussion about it. One thing I read stuck out in my mind though, and that was this:



So I lay in bed wondering what could change the snipers role but still keep them useful, and came up with this.
I'll first lay out the changes, then explain my reasoning for them.


-----
All snipers now cause 4 seconds of suppression to the unit they fire upon
All snipers deal 20 damage per shot to infantry.
All snipers have a cost reduction to 240 MP.
All snipers receive a critical hit chance on targets below 75% hp.
All snipers have a 400% damage bonus to units in garrisons.
-----

Now let me explain.
The key revolves around the mechanic that keeps a suppressed unit suppressed as long as it is taking continuous fire. When the sniper fires upon a unit, it no longer acts as a primary damage dealer, instead, you must capitalize on the momentary suppression by moving up one of your mobile infantry squads to keep the enemy unit pinned down.

This is important especially for the wehr and soviets. For the wehr, it gives them a tool to be more aggressive on the offense, as now you can suppress a defending squad and move up with your infantry without having to wait for a mortar to get into place to lay smoke. For the soviets, it gives them an alternative on the defense to the maxim which is locked behind tier 2(and still sorta sucks).

Because the suppression lasts less time then the reload of the sniper, the sniper will be incapable of keeping an enemy squad suppressed indefinitely by itself.


Snipers will have the secondary role of clearing garrisons hence the 400% damage increase to garrisoned units.

Because their potency has been reduced, and because they now require combined arms to function, it is necessary to decrease their cost as well.




Overall these changes would reduce the costs of snipers making them easier to field, reduce their potency but give them abilities that work well with combined arms, and offer a potential alternative to existing units without invalidating usage.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 14:25 PMferwiner

This idea has already been tested in WFA and people seem to use these sniper units rarely. In theory they have crit chance, more sniper rifles and lower chance of getting wiped. In practice, their performance if very RNG dependent and they don't let you win your engagement any better than another supporting infantry squad would. This is because they can't decrease enemy dps in whole engagement by sniping one model when it begins like EFA snipers were designed to.

There is much easier way to remove the "one man army" snipers from the game while keeping their support role. All one needs to do is making them slightly slower than other infantry, so they can't soft retreat when unsupported.

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 13:43 PMferwiner

We have two original factions that are designed around combined arms, which means they need to support their weaker infantry with support units. Removing snipers would mean these two factions are either left with going back to mgs and mortars or spamming infantry. Is that the direction we want to go?

Jump back to quoted post29 Apr 2018, 12:59 PMSerrith

We don't "need" snipers, but if there's an opportunity for us to include a unit that works well in combination with other units rewarding a diverse troop composition then i don't see why having that extra unit would be bad.