I strongly oppose the Soviet sniper change

The change on soviet sniper, in my opinion, is in favor of the axis side. The unique design of Soviet and OST/OKW tech makes the one-man Soviet sniper more easily get killed.

First, OST have much earlier access to light armor, 222 and HT than soviets. You are not considering use a M3 Scout car alone to catch sniper, but with 222 and Flame HT, you have better chance. Add additional accuracy to T70 help nothing, as it is far more expensive than 222 and Flame HT. OKW also can get Flak HT or Luch much earlier than Soviets. This combines the nerf to Guards and PTRS, make Soviet sniper a easy prey for the Axis.

Second, OST and OKW has much earlier field reinforcement than soviet. The medical HQ , Halftrack and bunkers can compensate the bleeding of Soviet sniper, while Soviets don't have non-doctoral field reinforcement method in early game.

Third, soviet sniper, in my idea, is the only suitable method to counter OST sniper. The two man design makes great pressure on the OST players to keep their sniper not too aggressively. A one-man squad completely denied this advantages, and make the OST sniper the king in the earlier game.

Maybe someone will think it just a Soviet noob that don't know how to counter sniper. You can check my rank as "『FC』#12345678" in the ladder, and I must admit that kill a sniper in 4 vs 4 versus experienced Axis is very difficult without a 2 man Soviet sniper.

Add the player card link: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198155221383

Update:

Please don't tag me as OP!! I just have more games played and I just play COH2 for fun. I am also not good at micros or multiple line operation. The reasoning here is just the analysis on the strongest/weakest of each fraction from my experience.

There are two more arguments on the opposition of the soviet sniper change:

1. The axis factions had much better earlier anti tank than the allies. They have easily accessed snares (Panzerfaust in Grenadier and Volks), good at guns. And they don't have sacrifice any tech to get these. The better anti-tank makes allied light armor assault highly risky. Let alone the high price of allied light armor(m20: 340 mp, 20 fuel, Stuart: 270mp, 60 fuel?, T70: 260mp, 70 fuel). Will you want to trade your precise armor for a 360 mp OST sniper?

2. The design of the Easter front snipers.
OST: high fire output but high risk, get one shot killed by Soviet sniper.
Soviet: Low fire output, but low risk. Only lose 90MP when get snipped.
I think this dynamic design is quite smart and well-considered. Just homogenize Soviet sniper to a worse OST one is a poor choice. COH2 is quite interesting because of the unique design of each unit. If you get all units to similar mirrors, what's the point to play it?

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Let me put some counter points since i'm strongly in favor of the change. Do keep in mind i'm average at best at this game but i play mainly 1v1 and disagree completely that this game should be balanced around 4v4

1: soviets get plenty of early counters for Wehrmacht light armor ie: mines, penal ptrs, cons ptrs for memes

2: m3 with engineers inside is an excellent sniper counter(and earliest)

3: a sniper is always a bigger risk to wermacht then soviets because of the 4 man squads (one model down -25% dps)



im sure theres more but my own opinion is that all this changes is that soviet cant auto-win countersnipes anymore excuse my manners but as a dark souls player i have to say this GIT GUD and its not a proplem


im willing to continue debating tho

3: a sniper is always a bigger risk to wermacht then soviets because of the 4 man squads (one model down -25% dps)

That applies exclusively to first 3 minutes, after that LMGs start to pop and most of squads DPS in on a singular model.

I'm with you OP, but for design reasons not ballance ones. That is why I can support the soviet vs ostheer sniper argument as in the live version the dynamic between those units is really good and well thought.

Btw. It is generally considered better to put a link to your playercard instead of a name becouse name can change or be multiplied and becouse it saves everybody from looking it up.

Remember that the Soviet sniper's offensive abilities have been buffed in return: it fires and cloaks faster now.

maybe a better vet 1 ability would be nice also, something to help its performance or utility similar to how the Ost sniper has the incendiary rounds and the Brit sniper has an incredibly potent snare. I'd say overall though 1 man snipers mean Soviets actually need to use proper micro of snipers for maximum effective instead of before where counter snipes were super difficult for OST.

Im not sure what ability would be good though to replace flares

maybe a better vet 1 ability would be nice also, something to help its performance or utility similar to how the Ost sniper has the incendiary rounds and the Brit sniper has an incredibly potent snare. I'd say overall though 1 man snipers mean Soviets actually need to use proper micro of snipers for maximum effective instead of before where counter snipes were super difficult for OST.

Im not sure what ability would be good though to replace flares

If you want something on par with these two in effectiveness just make the flare much cheaper or even free. Self spotting sniper goes a long way in increasing its effectiveness.

That said what we know is that the change will most probably make it imballanced, its hard to say whether its going to be OP or UP after the changes. Every other change added to the unit right now can potentially make the situation worse. So I wouldn't touch vet1 until we have some real playtests like a small tourney in new patch or something.

If you want something on par with these two in effectiveness just make the flare much cheaper or even free. Self spotting sniper goes a long way in increasing its effectiveness.

That said what we know is that the change will most probably make it imballanced, its hard to say whether its going to be OP or UP after the changes. Every other change added to the unit right now can potentially make the situation worse. So I wouldn't touch vet1 until we have some real playtests like a small tourney in new patch or something.

True really none of us know where the new sniper is gonna land in balance, and maybe after testing we will see if they need something added on to them.

That applies exclusively to first 3 minutes, after that LMGs start to pop and most of squads DPS in on a singular model.

thats not completely true the lmg does work i wont dispute that but one gren model drop is a bigger deal trough the whole game than cons losing a model. not to mention you cant re-crew anything if the soviet snipes one dude thats pretty huge. also the soviet sniper is getting buffed aswell i really think that change is only good and will just require more ''skill'' from the ruski player


but again im still learning this game i fully admit im not the best in the end my opinions probably shouldnt matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

OP is right.

Not to mention the 222 got a cost decrease and an armor bonus meaning a Scour car .50 cal kite with PTRS is gonna be difficult if not risky.

Im not against making the sniper a 1 man squad, that seems fair, but the counters to said sniper are more in favor of OST than Soviet. The problem im facing is I hate faction homogenization but feel like there are limited tools or tools that face timing issues to be of use to make strategies that include such a fragile unit work.

If you ask me, I'd just increase the base SU sniper cost or increase the reinforce cost if it really is necessary to nerf it.

I just want to maintain its present appearance, utility and function. The extra reinforce cost would punish reckless play by increasing the price tag of keeping the squad alive in hostile conditions for too long.

I honestly loved the old incin round no animation 2 shot kill vs sov snipers. It was really a bug that added more complexity and skill to the game. What I didn't like about incin round was the fact it killed on retreat about 99% of the time vs other squads which lead to unfair wipes.

What about the possible solution of the sov sniper flare revealed cloaked units? And potentially didn't reveal the sov sniper when firing. 2nd part may be a bit in the OP direction so I'd like to see some debate on that.

I'm with you OP, but for design reasons not ballance ones. That is why I can support the soviet vs ostheer sniper argument as in the live version the dynamic between those units is really good and well thought.

Btw. It is generally considered better to put a link to your playercard instead of a name becouse name can change or be multiplied and becouse it saves everybody from looking it up.

Well, the player card is online now.

IDK - it's not the worst change in the patch. Soviet Sniper is still going to be potent vs. OST due to the mechanics of 4 man squads and just gives OST another more viable counter in the form of counter-sniping. In which case you've forced OST to build a 360 MP unit that isn't nearly as useful at sniping down conscripts.

Well, the player card is online now.

And the thread goes downhill from here...

I honestly loved the old incin round no animation 2 shot kill vs sov snipers. It was really a bug that added more complexity and skill to the game. What I didn't like about incin round was the fact it killed on retreat about 99% of the time vs other squads which lead to unfair wipes.

What about the possible solution of the sov sniper flare revealed cloaked units? And potentially didn't reveal the sov sniper when firing. 2nd part may be a bit in the OP direction so I'd like to see some debate on that.

The No.2 reason cannot be simply fixed for OKW. They need those HQ in the field.
But for OST, it can be done by:
1. remove HT to T3, possible but not very feasible
2. Limit reinforce speed of HT until battle phase 3
3. Limit command bunker upgrade until battle phase 3;

Command/medical bunker, and mg/motar spam supported by Grenadier in the 4vs4 earlier game is impressive OP. I cannot found any other way to counter unless spam HM38 120mm motar or use smoke/penal combination as a Soviet. UKF and USF never have a chance in earlier game when the players are in the same level.

Remember that the Soviet sniper's offensive abilities have been buffed in return: it fires and cloaks faster now.

But still worse that the ost one. For the same price.

But still worse that the ost one. For the same price.

Sure, let's give him Ost sniper stats, so it would remove Ost inf play completely. Do you even have slightest undertandment why it HAS to have slightly worst stats?

Sure, let's give him Ost sniper stats, so it would remove Ost inf play completely. Do you even have slightest undertandment why it HAS to have slightly worst stats?

Because of small ost sizes, do you have any idea why it HAS 2 models? To make up for its 4 man balanced rof. Maybe the ost sniper needs to lose its ROF then if its going to be the exact same price and a completely inferiour one inferiour one from individual stats to availible support.