panther should be slower (and re-evaluating medium speed)

Your text..
"There is no point in making rock,
because the enemy will counter with paper.
And if you make scissors to stop his paper,
then he will counter with rock, making the whole thing useless.

I want my unit to be un-counterable. And un-defeatable.
Else, it's not worth making in the first place."

(Notice the " ")

As for tank snares : Use mines.
As for tank snares : Hit early while he is on his approach.
- If he retreats, haven't you driven him off?
As for tank snares : They affects allies too, the same way, you know.
As for tank snares : Your inf had to be right next to him, how did he
retreat into the FOW BEFORE the snare hits? Snares don't travel slower
than Goliath, you know.

Then don't build mediums against a panther, and instead stay at range with a TD and make the panther either A) back off or B) make him come to you.

no one builds mediums vs panther, they all build tds. The panther is only up vs tds, it is good vs everything else. If you want to buff the panther to fight tds, then mediums need to be able to keep up with the panther. Blitz makes it difficult to flank panthers.

They could change the way blitz works to benefit both sides:
Blitz gives improved accuracy and speed, but the tank is slowed below normal speeds for 5-10 seconds when the ability expires.
Blitz is now available at vet 0

no one builds mediums vs panther, they all build tds. The panther is only up vs tds, it is good vs everything else. If you want to buff the panther to fight tds, then mediums need to be able to keep up with the panther. Blitz makes it difficult to flank panthers.

They could change the way blitz works to benefit both sides:
Blitz gives improved accuracy and speed, but the tank is slowed below normal speeds for 5-10 seconds when the ability expires.
Blitz is now available at vet 0

==============
- Rock Paper Scissors argument collapses in end-game with allies apparently having last word.

- I disagree on blitz giving increased on the move accuracy, that is an american ability, and
while the Panther had excellent range and optics, those were in sniper situations. Again, you
propose to make it into a Kaufman retrograde-with-gyro unit (Google Kaufman retrodrade).

I suggest instead to make it into a buffed StuG w buffed MGs
- Reduce back speed on all units by 2/3 (Historical) tanks didn't go fast in reverse.
- Except for Puma (which had a reverse speed wheel and gearbox)(Really!)
- Less health, current armor, more range (50) change blitz for StuG's stunshot.
- Give it a serious MG buff (3x MG, my god, it deserves it).
- ROF and DMG upgrade (it's a 75mm. Not a 152mm 2 stage ammo)(200 is nice)
- NO accuracy-on-the-move buff.
- Maybe give it an accuracy-while-stationary buff?

SU85, SU76, STUG and Panther should get an ability similar to Hull Down naturally.
Giving it ROF bonuses at the expense of mobility. (similar to COH1's PE Pz4G and Marder III).

Also gives an opportunity to side-nerf SU76.
Give it pen nerf, and very slight ROF nerf in exchange for this innate immobile ROF buff.
Give this to the Jackson too. SU85.

Can be mobile. But not as OP.
Can be OP as before (as current) but if sacrifice mobility.

It's a chance to recalibrate the Panther, while also an opportunity to change current
allied TDs. Without making all TDs (And the Panther) into short-ranged squirmishers.
- And it gives you a chance to fix the SU76 too.

NO-ACCURACY-BUFF-ON-THE-MOVE.
I'd LOVE to see the UI improved to show how the % to hit changes from mobile to immobile.
A lot of the Panther's issues would be fixed if people understood how it is affected.
- Also, a lot of people DEMANDED British tank accuracy be nerfed-on-the-move.
This was done. You are not now getting a Panther that has 110% accuracy while on blitzkrieg.
(by force of your own argument over why british accuracy should be nerfed).

Interesting how everything affects everything else in this game.

That's exactly what people do, thus you open a thread to complain that panther has no use.

Panther counter medium and heavy tanks.

1- Nobody use medium tank enough to make the panther useful except on 4vs4
2- Nobody use heavy tank to make the panther useful except on 4vs4

Then you've got two solutions imo
1- Or you make the medium tank play meta which require a lot of changes on many units, mostly likely to be impossible today
2- or you change the panther to be something else than a tank hunter, kind of EZ8 maybe. Problem there is already the Tiger in that role. And he'll still face the same counters.

Yep exactly, I really wish we could go back to medium meta, it made for much more fun micro intense battles and cat and mouse games, but i agree probably impossible at this point.

I will tell you a huge reason why I don't use mediums anymore is for one every fuckin axis infantry unit has snares now even the call in infantry its rediculous, that gaurantees a fail almost every time on a big flank or dive. grens volks fusilers ostruppen falls think even jager or stormtroopers might also, then think about how many allied infantry have snares. Thats a huge one, no mobility on mediums makes them of no use and every time there gonna get snare spammed.

Snares are really what have always undermined medium tank design, as well as infantry AT weapons being freely available for stock units AND having deflection damage.

In vCoH (not opposing fronts) you only had sticky bombs for American riflemen to snare. Only infantry AT weapons were doctrinal for American (rangers or paras) or panzerschrecks for Wehrmacht that didn't have snares. (Fausts didn't snare at a certain threshhold.) The infantry based AT is much more central to CoH2, and one of the major reasons infantry blobs and heavies have been such prominent players.

Snares are really what have always undermined medium tank design, as well as infantry AT weapons being freely available for stock units AND having deflection damage.

In vCoH (not opposing fronts) you only had sticky bombs for American riflemen to snare. Only infantry AT weapons were doctrinal for American (rangers or paras) or panzerschrecks for Wehrmacht that didn't have snares. (Fausts didn't snare at a certain threshhold.) The infantry based AT is much more central to CoH2, and one of the major reasons infantry blobs and heavies have been such prominent players.

Coh 1 was crush festival where kangaroos would simply drive over AT infantry pushing them so that they couldn't fire until they got crushed.

The change was actually an improvement.

If the enemy is spending their fuel on tank destroyers to fight your Panther then they're not spending that fuel on medium tanks.

Medium tanks inflict manpower bleed. Tank destroyers don't.

If the enemy is spending their fuel on tank destroyers to fight your Panther then they're not spending that fuel on medium tanks.

Medium tanks inflict manpower bleed. Tank destroyers don't.

The issue is that certain factions dont need to rely on mediums to inflict bleed and instead can ball omnipotent infantry to do that freeinh up fuel to ensure the enemy cant use their mediums to do their job

The issue is that certain factions dont need to rely on mediums to inflict bleed and instead can ball omnipotent infantry to do that freeinh up fuel to ensure the enemy cant use their mediums to do their job

Sort of, im also worried about heavy tanks later that medium rushes use to be good against but are not anymore because of snares and mines, and just mediums speed in general i think they should all be maybe a hair faster, i mean ive def seen blitz be crutch on axis mediums, and cromwell can be epic because of its speed, idk ez8s the patch they added a bit more health or something to it and 34-85 i think they nerfed speed and accelration a bit further making them worse at flanking and epic dives.

Didnt snares use to only work if tanks were at 50 percent or 25 percent health? Thats the way they should work or mediums will never be worth it really

Snares only work after the 75% damage threshold (after snare damage is applied) lowering that might be interesting. As for blitz and war speed... Idk why they dont simply have the engine overheat thing that the naughty naughty t34 gets. I mean how is rifles sprinting OP and in need of a debuff but 320 armour and 800 health is all laudy da (well, not really seeing as its been nerfed to dick over the years because a speed boost on a hightly armoured already fast unit is bad design.... But alas)

Snares only work after the 75% damage threshold (after snare damage is applied) lowering that might be interesting. As for blitz and war speed... Idk why they dont simply have the engine overheat thing that the naughty naughty t34 gets. I mean how is rifles sprinting OP and in need of a debuff but 320 armour and 800 health is all laudy da (well, not really seeing as its been nerfed to dick over the years because a speed boost on a hightly armoured already fast unit is bad design.... But alas)

Exactly but 50 percent would be much more interesting and i think that would make for much ‘more interesting tanks battles that both sides enjoy im sure, i thibk snare damage is a bit too high maybe as well have to thibk of the light vehicle game but most of that has been takin out of meta and i dont see it as a huge issue as light are the most micro taxed in general anyway. At 75 percent that obly means light damage on approach thats the problem always other forms of at around from both sides and just snare spam alone is enough to damage Mediums to be snared. thats what just dosent make sense. You bring back allied medium play you bring back panthers role of chief on cat and mouse and loosen allied go to meta spam tds because its only thing that works.

Edit: i mean i dont think it would effect light vehicles that much because just the damage from one snare is normally enough to push them away for a bit, there micro intensive and even light can still win games in the right situations, that and once again they turned allied lights into light tds this works in axis favor tho as they have shit ai and only exist mostly to defend luchs rush. To be honest anymore id rather volks had a shrek upgrade option again instead of snares just not the super vet immortalitiy they had then when shreks did dmg like the main gun of a tank on infantry and super vetted them.Still bother me most is like why do all axis call in infantry have snares??? Isnt it suppose to be you called fusliers or ostruppen or etc to go heavy inf play but lack at ability like rangers, airborne, etc where i could use mediums but no they posses the all around no weakness

I have the same feeling that what is primarily killing the medium tank meta is the profusion of snare in almost any infantry in game, except for the UKF.
And looking at how UKF works today, I think we could get ride of 80% of all snares in game.

-1 Snares could be removed from mainline infantry and given to pioneers/engineers/Rear Echelon.
-2 Snares threshold could be put at 50% of the tank life.
-3 Snares could be replaced with another disability for the tank, turret rotation or reload speed or whatever that doesn't reduce the tank speed.
-4 Snares could be temporal, like 3/5 seconds.

And if snares are so important for the early game vs light vehicle, snares could act the same way as today for those units.

You cant really even dive with mediums anymore really anyways they will just get snared as almost every axis infantry has them even axis call in infantry or hit a mine which often results in you losing your mediums and panther escaping with a sliver of health. So more than 1 medium (to use mostly for AI) really not effective for allies anymore hence why I and everyone uses TDs to just try and block axis armor from a safe distance. I really use to like running mediums packs especially ez8s but they just do not seem effective at all for allies anymore in 1v1 maybe more viable but not 2v2 or up.

Yep exactly, I really wish we could go back to medium meta, it made for much more fun micro intense battles and cat and mouse games, but i agree probably impossible at this point.

I will tell you a huge reason why I don't use mediums anymore is for one every fuckin axis infantry unit has snares now even the call in infantry its rediculous, that gaurantees a fail almost every time on a big flank or dive. grens volks fusilers ostruppen falls think even jager or stormtroopers might also, then think about how many allied infantry have snares. Thats a huge one, no mobility on mediums makes them of no use and every time there gonna get snare spammed.

I have the same feeling that what is primarily killing the medium tank meta is the profusion of snare in almost any infantry in game, except for the UKF.
And looking at how UKF works today, I think we could get ride of 80% of all snares in game.

-1 Snares could be removed from mainline infantry and given to pioneers/engineers/Rear Echelon.
-2 Snares threshold could be put at 50% of the tank life.
-3 Snares could be replaced with another disability for the tank, turret rotation or reload speed or whatever that doesn't reduce the tank speed.
-4 Snares could be temporal, like 3/5 seconds.

And if snares are so important for the early game vs light vehicle, snares could act the same way as today for those units.

since vanilla release the field has been filled with infantry tank snare. The game started with faust, at nade, and guard button, and now it's still the same faust, and at nade. The addition of the other faction didn't change matter. If it's not volks faust it's going to be gren faust. If it's not conscript at nade it's going to be rifle at nade.

and the snare have gotten gradual nerf. At release they were 100% damage engine, but now they need to down down the tank hp to 75% first.

in short, at snare is not the issue here.

In coh2 there have been three medium tanks that have seen regular use. The panzer4, the t34/85, and the cromwell (before the nerf anyway).


I believe the key factor in the viability of the t34/85 and cromwell are their survivability.

The effect of the t34/85's 800 hp is self explanatory.

The cromwell (and comet), meanwhile was the first allied medium to be actually faster than the panther. This contribute heavily to the cromwell's survivability as they could consistently escape panther. Warspeed is as much of a escape tool as it is a flanking tool.

secondly was the cromwell's small size of 18. This provide the cromwell a second form of defense against the TD. This is also why I believe tank destroyer should be less accurate. The centaur still have the 18 size and the effect on accuracy is noticeable.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

If it costs almost double mediums, you should have roughly 2 mediums per panther. Sounds more like a l2p issue than a balance issue.

There's more to it than a general panther vs medium slug match.

It's a matter of unit preservation. It's easier to retreat out of a bad situation if the enemy isn't faster than you. (or have laser accurate guns)

the simple vehicle smoke is one of the best ability in the game for this reason.

medium tank should be able to outrun what it can't outfight.

and lastly 6.4 2.3 isn't slow. The current sherman tank is only 6.4 2.2 and the e8 even slower at 6.1 2.1.

since vanilla release the field has been filled with infantry tank snare. The game started with faust, at nade, and guard button, and now it's still the same faust, and at nade. The addition of the other faction didn't change matter. If it's not volks faust it's going to be gren faust. If it's not conscript at nade it's going to be rifle at nade.

and the snare have gotten nerf, since they require a knock down to 75% to cause a engine damage.

in short, at snare is not the issue here.

In coh2 there have been three medium tanks that have seen regular use. The panzer4, the t34/85, and the cromwell (before the nerf anyway).


I believe the key factor in the viability of the t34/85 and cromwell are their survivability.

The effect of the t34/85's 800 hp is self explanatory.

The cromwell, meanwhile was the first allied medium to be actually faster than the panther. This contribute heavily to the cromwell's survivability as they could consistently escape panther. Warspeed is as much of a escape tool as it is a flanking tool.

secondly was the cromwell's small size of 18. This provide the cromwell a second form of defense against the TD. This is also why I believe tank destroyer should be less accurate.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

And yet you barely see any Cromwell on the field today.

You have to understand that mediums, TDs and heavies are sharing the same resource: fuel. So if you invest into several mediums you better get a good return on your investment because this means you are not going to get any heavy tank soon (if you have some on your loadout) and you are not going to get any TD soon as well.

So the question is, how will you make this investment returning anything good if you opponent can shut you down with a pair of pak or cheap (SU-76 / Stug) TDs with snare support.
Here we are not in a situation where even if your infantry squad is suppressed by an HMG, you can hit the retreat button, reinforce and come back. Nop, being snared (which is equivalent of suppression) is usually a death blow for your tank and fuel investment.
And then, after a certain time, your mediums are getting outclassed by the heavies your opponent was saving his fuel for.

At vanilla start, the game wasn't balance at all, it reach that balance state just before Western Front release. So it is difficult to tell if medium tank war was balance and viable at that time.

What is interesting today is Axis is much more using their medium tanks today because they are far more powerful in the actual meta.
Ostheer Pz4/Stug/P4 Command tank combo have a great survivability thanks to the P4 aura and doctrinal smoke from the same commanders, great dps vs other mediums (stug) and good dps vs infantry.
OKW Pz4 is a beast vs infantry with a native good armor making it difficult for Allied medium tanks to pierce it and the Jpz4 is the best medium tank counter in game taken as a single unit which also at the same time counter Allied TDs.

As you see the most important factor is the survivabilty both factions have for their mediums, Snares have much less effect to them.
Ostheer because of 20% more health and smoke to disengage.
OKW because you much pen that armor first and then not being wiped while trying to get it snared...

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Please do not believe I'm complaining about what I just wrote, I'm just stating why the medium tank meta is actually much more viable for the Axis faction than Allied one.

And yet you barely see any Cromwell on the field today.

well, the cromwell got the following nerf:

less accurate gun (bigger scatter)

slower rotation.

bigger size (22 vs 18).

less moving accuracy.


All those nerf significantly hurt the cromwell, but the size nerf was the most damaging change. Without that small size the cromwell can't dodge shots as well before.

You have to understand that mediums, TDs and heavies are sharing the same resource: fuel. So if you invest into several mediums you better get a good return on your investment because this means you are not going to get any heavy tank soon (if you have some on your loadout) and you are not going to get any TD soon as well.

which is why I mentioned survivability. It's easier to make the medium tank worth its value if it last longer.

Right now the Extreme accuracy on TD and the speed of the panther hurt allies tank because they are less likely to survive an engagement.

Even without snare the medium tank is likely to die against concentrated anti-tank fire.

The cromwell proved medium tank can be extremely useful even against snare.

Of course then the tank got nerfed to mediocrity.

or let me put it in another way.

The amount of AT snare hasn't hurt the light tank viability nearly as much, despite having less HP.

well, the cromwell got the following nerf:

less accurate gun (bigger scatter)

slower rotation.

bigger size (22 vs 18).

less moving accuracy.


All those nerf significantly hurt the cromwell, but the size nerf was the most damaging change. Without that small size the cromwell can't dodge shots as well before.


which is why I mentioned survivability. It's easier to make the medium tank worth its value if it last longer.

Right now the Extreme accuracy on TD and the speed of the panther hurt allies tank because they are less likely to survive an engagement.

Even without snare the medium tank is likely to die against concentrated anti-tank fire.

The cromwell proved medium tank can be extremely useful even against snare.

Of course then the tank got nerfed to mediocrity.

or let me put it in another way.

The amount of AT snare hasn't hurt the light tank viability nearly as much, despite having less HP.

Less accuracy means more frustration which isn't good for the game. I read you thread and if the need of reducing the dominance of TDs over medium is needed, making it more subject to RNG isn't going to make it any better.

Personally I would like to see if, without any other changes, EZ8 and T85 being stock would be incentive for players to build more of them. Those tanks have natural better survivabilty than their actual stock counter part and are the kind of medium you really want a Panther to counter.

snip

Do you think part of the Panther conundrum is the lack of a well fleshed out role it has to perform?

When compared to other T4 units and T3 support it just seems to draw the shortest stick in most cases.

Brummbar will outright decimate infantry with attack ground and the Bunker buster barrage (especially with spotting scopes) is usually an outright delete support weapons button that is free. While doing huge damage to lone squads and blobs it will make a dent to several pieces of armor as well and is a threat if ignored. It also has the health and armor to act as a short term meat shield and take on lone AT guns head on.

Stugs with their low cost and popcap efficiency will burst down armor of all sizes while being relatively safe to trade in engagements. Panther losses can be unrecoverable on the other hand and the unit is in a later tier. Stugs also compensate for the moving accuracy penalty with superior RoF while Panther needs babysitting to get the same results.

Popcap efficiency also favors the Stug, a Stug duo or trio is pretty easy to manage in your BO's while a Panther duo can be an incredible burden for the results they yield. The low cost of backteching is also a bonus.

Panzerwerfer then again is the current king of alpha damage rocket artillery and close range usage will result in severe bleed and wipes most of the time.

Panther on the other hand Can be decent vs infantry and Can slug it out with armor head on. I think the important word here is Can. What is the incentive to get a unit that Might perform both roles when you have access to units on the same tier/through affordable backteching that will give you guaranteed and reliable results in their area of expertise. Investment into a Panther as of now feels like unnecessary risk that can be avoided by fielding popcap efficient Stugs and infantry remover Brummbars and werfers from T4 and using them in conjunction. Those units seem like no brainers compared to the popcap and resource sink Panther.

I think somewhat similar peculiarity can be seen between SU76 and SU85 where massed SU76s will perform better/equally than their T4 counterpart while having lower tech requirements, more mobility, utility and lower replacement cost. In that case they both of course are without a doubt TDs so its much easier to compare them. I don't think that is the case with TD Stug and *insert clear defined role* Panther.

Perhaps a better consensus about the Panther and possible changes could be achieved if it was first determined what is the role it should excel at. Something that would incentivize building it over other units.

...
Perhaps a better consensus about the Panther and possible changes could be achieved if it was first determined what is the role it should excel at. Something that would incentivize building it over other units.

At this point swaping Tiger to T4 and adjusting tech cost seem a better solution imo.

It misses on the move too often, so if you want score a hit you need drive, then stop to fire, then drive again and so on. So if you don't use a stopwatch for perfect timing, that actually hurts the average speed of panther. But if you want to run and miss, and run into pakwall, it's your choice...

Agreed for the command one though. Feels like it is faster than anything including lights.

It misses on the move too often, so if you want score a hit you need drive, then stop to fire, then drive again and so on. So if you don't use a stopwatch for perfect timing, that actually hurts the average speed of panther. But if you want to run and miss, and run into pakwall, it's your choice...

Agreed for the command one though. Feels like it is faster than anything including lights.

That is literally what every single tank except sherman need to do. Nothing really wrong with it.