Balance 2018 2vs2

-Snip-

This guy gets it. Some good points in here.

Id say dual brens is a bit OP. One bren is okay but 2 brens are ridiculous in cover. Make it one slot, give it the dps of the mg42 and itll be easier to balance against axis squads.

The bar would be put in line if its long-range strength was toned down slightly at the same time you don't want to overnerf the Bar as it'll make the upgrade subpar.

And Katitof is right about lmg rifles. Back in the day vet 3 Rifleman's Squads with double 30 cal were insanely strong at all ranges and unkillable with the RA vets. The only real squad that could compete with them were the broken Obersoldaten at the time.

The history of what used to be OP/broken is not really helpful, in the current patch (it useful as a reference to what value make sense and what not).

If one want 2 weapons to have the same DPS against different targets one has to take into account the difference in target size (if any) or the effective HP.


Imo lowering price and performance of dual weapon like D-28 is a better way of doing thing since dropping weapons will a drawback of that will limit the number of weapon given to squads.

Maybe trade the extra bren for a snare and add the land mattress to their normal tech.

Id say dual brens is a bit OP. One bren is okay but 2 brens are ridiculous in cover. Make it one slot, give it the dps of the mg42 and itll be easier to balance against axis squads.

The bar would be put in line if its long-range strength was toned down slightly at the same time you don't want to overnerf the Bar as it'll make the upgrade subpar.

And Katitof is right about lmg rifles. Back in the day vet 3 Rifleman's Squads with double 30 cal were insanely strong at all ranges and unkillable with the RA vets. The only real squad that could compete with them were the broken
Obersoldaten at the time.

Bren cant have the same dps as the mg42 because the mg42 is so good to offset grens model count so they can keep dps up. Not only can tommies offset that with a small cost (for all infantry they build) they are also more durable to begin with but also get the same rec acc buff (-23%) a whole vet level sooner

Thr problem with dual wields iis that it allows already superiour units to widen that gap to ungodly unmatchable levels.

Double guns make fresh squads fight like vetted squads and vetted squads near undefeatable.

Even if you think allied are dominating this game Axis have their cheese aswell which can ***** allies over.

But IMO they way allied combined arms works combined with good team play. Getting map control on open areas and
constantly push the axis around.
VP harassment And their weapon symbiosis without being doctrine specific from mid game to the early tanks waves.
2v1 player wipe potential is quickly executed.

A good Axis game still needs tech to control and finish a round, always gives allies time to creep their way back into the game. $§%$! Zombies.

If you crush allies mid game, probably because they did hard mistakes or you had a few lucky mines.
Min 10 to 20 is so extremely difficult when allied players know what they are doing.
All you do is tryp to keep to stay alive hoping to get a tank out, a lucky shot on the blob or other surprises. The time as Axis you can't really afford to loose any squads or equipment.


That what makes them so dangerous, leading axis to mistakes they can't recover from and by by late game.

Tltr;
Allies OP after early game and before lategame ^^

Bren cant have the same dps as the mg42 because the mg42 is so good to offset grens model count so they can keep dps up. Not only can tommies offset that with a small cost (for all infantry they build) they are also more durable to begin with but also get the same rec acc buff (-23%) a whole vet level sooner

Thr problem with dual wields iis that it allows already superiour units to widen that gap to ungodly unmatchable levels.

Double guns make fresh squads fight like vetted squads and vetted squads near undefeatable.

Yeah now that you mention it making the Bren a mg42 copy would probably be a bit op. Still the Bren would need a slight buff if made a single wield IMO.

My biggest worry is that they changed the Bren/Bar to a single wield but don't balance it properly in which the upgrades become up.

I do agree however the Dual wield needs to be looked at as single upgrades imo is better for game balance/health

I watched 7-8 top matches today, and the german have lost everything. Brosras lost 3 game in row with Antaria, Siddolio also 2-3 lost in row. JohnSmith, you talk about the balance you've seen there in turnir. Go back to reality.

The games I lost as Axis today were 1v1s, not relevant in this thread at all. Once people clock on to what the actual Axis 2v2 meta is it's gonna become a lot more lopsided for Axis as shown in UTT.

In a game where all 4 players min-max their builds Axis should win, doesn't mean Allies doesn't have it's win conditions

They made a durable cqc squad excel at range dps.

Then they should nerf bars long range damage, yes?

Then they should nerf bars long range damage, yes?

Do bars excel at long range compared to short?

Bars boost what rifles are supposed to do, not alter it completely, changing dynamics of squad.

Do bars excel at long range compared to short?

Bars boost what rifles are supposed to do, not alter it completely, changing dynamics of squad.

Riflemen m1 to Bar DPS 0/5/10/15/20/25/30/35

M1 5.4/4.7/3.5/2.7/2.3/1.9/1.6/1.4

Bar 10.6/10.6/6.2/5.2/4.7/4.2/3.4/3.2

Ratio 196%/225%/177%/192%/247%/213%/229%
(Cruzz)

m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp 6.8/5.8/4.3/3.4/2.8/2.3/2.0/1.7
riflemen_bar_30_06_light_machine_gun_mp 14.0/14.0/10.5/8.0/7.0/6.0/5.2/4.4

ratio 2.07/2.39/2.41/2.35/2.49/2.57/2.61/2.61
(Firesparks)

So I would say that bars do excel at long range.

Riflemen are designed for mid range not close.

Riflemen m1 to Bar DPS 0/5/10/15/20/25/30/35

M1 5.4/4.7/3.5/2.7/2.3/1.9/1.6/1.4

Bar 10.6/10.6/6.2/5.2/4.7/4.2/3.4/3.2

Ratio 196%/225%/177%/192%/247%/213%/229%
(Cruzz)

m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp 6.8/5.8/4.3/3.4/2.8/2.3/2.0/1.7
riflemen_bar_30_06_light_machine_gun_mp 14.0/14.0/10.5/8.0/7.0/6.0/5.2/4.4

ratio 2.07/2.39/2.41/2.35/2.49/2.57/2.61/2.61
(Firesparks)

So I would say that bars do excel at long range.

Remember that back in the day, LMGs had a different dps profile to what they do have now and having 2 on rifles created all range dps monster.

Bars while potent, play to units intended ranges, which you will see if you now compare the total DPS of the squad instead of creating perception bias.
(going to pick only close, far and mid value for simplicity)
5x M1 garand: 34 / 14 / 8,5
With 2x bar: 48 / 22,4 / 13,9
Which translates to: 141% / 160% / 163%

Unfortunately I do not have old m1919 values saved, so I'll work with current one, assuming 2x are possible:

5x M1 garand: 34 / 14 / 8,5
With 2x M1919: 33,6 / 25,6 / 23,9

Which translates to:little over 1% dps decrease at cqc / 183% / 281%.

Do you start to see a slight difference between max range DPS increase for dual BARs and dual LMGs?
BARs provide consistent DPS increase across all ranges with similar DPS increase ratio at every range, they are strengthening rifles base curve at a hefty cost of 120 muni.

Now, do you see what dual LMGs did? Specifically to max range?
Its a complete alteration of base squad DPS curve, not increasing it, but making it more flat-changing the units role to literally Tommies on steroids, very effective at all ranges.

Bars are good at long range, but hardly excel compared to dual M1919.
Hell, 2x BARs are still weaker then a singular M1919 at long range. I'd say that fact alone points out that they hardly excel at long range, if we take into account impact of DPS curve with both.

That is why M1919 were limited to 1 and BARs were not.

Riflemen are designed for mid range not close.

Please do not state your personal opinions as facts.

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That is why M1919 were limited to 1 and BARs were not.


Please do not state your personal opinions as facts.

Riflemen
Performs moderately at all ranges; excels against other rifled units at short-mid
Vulnerable at long ranges
Versus Grenadiers
Slightly advantaged at long ranges
Advantaged at mid ranges
Advantaged at short ranges

Bar still increases the DPS of riflemen squad at long range 261% which is allot.

Riflemen and semi automatic weapons are designed for mid range. Smgs are designed for close.

That is not a personal opinion it is a fact.

The games I lost as Axis today were 1v1s, not relevant in this thread at all. Once people clock on to what the actual Axis 2v2 meta is it's gonna become a lot more lopsided for Axis as shown in UTT.

In a game where all 4 players min-max their builds Axis should win, doesn't mean Allies doesn't have it's win conditions

You're wrong. If we analyze in detail your loss of matches (and Brosras matches, and many other matches), the same problem will come up.

Snip

Still reducing long range DPS would go a long way to differentiate a bit more AR vs bolt/LMGs.

Same opinion i have since almost 1 n half year ago

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Riflemen and semi automatic weapons are designed for mid range. Smgs are designed for close.

What's your opinion then on FG42 and IR STG ?

IMO all AR should be closer to performance of PG STG.

Rifles out dps most nondoc axis infantry except the Strumpio at close range.

Still reducing long range DPS would go a long way to differentiate a bit more AR vs bolt/LMGs.

Same opinion i have since almost 1 n half year ago

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What's your opinion then on FG42 and IR STG ?

IMO all AR should be closer to performance of PG STG.

Wouldn't Falls being pretty bad if the FG42 was turned into a mid-range weapon? They feel a little too squish to be a mid-range based unit imo.

Rifles out dps most nondoc axis infantry except the Strumpio at close range.




Wouldn't Falls being pretty bad if the FG42 was turned into a mid-range weapon? They feel a little too squish to be a mid-range based unit imo.

Falls have always been too expensive. Changes to RA or others may be due.
When i say reduce long range DPS on ARs, i'm talking about putting it barely above Obersoldaten level of DPS from range 25-35. If that doesn't give you a perspective, it has double DPS than Grens Kar at range 35.

I'm a believer that DPS powercreep since WFA has been set too high, which makes profiles on weapons worthless and forces you on a race to get weapon upgrades on all your units.

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IMO all AR should be closer to performance of PG STG.

IR STG upgrade should replace all K98 rifles and be balanced accordingly. Mixing sort range weapon likes IR STG and long range weapon like the K98 is actually bad design.

That 2v2 balance is even a discussion to anyone is mind boggling. How little do you have to know about how this game works to know that a unit reducing 25% of all damage received in a giant AOE is game-breaking.