IMO its the effectiveness of OKW's early unit composition. Sturmpios close range/volks long vs Cons shortrange/Rifles medium range.
Its hard to trade effectively due to the damage output of OKW's infantry early game but units in USF can scale better due to the bars.
IMO: This might be a starting resource issue or even a starting unit issue seeing as how combat engineers are worthless until clowncar/flamethrower, and RE's simply have to high of a recived accuracy.
Balance 2018 2vs2
9 Apr 2018, 14:56 PM
#41
1 
Posts: 1276
9 Apr 2018, 14:57 PM
#42
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
From a statistical point of a view it is exactly the opposite. The top and bottom values are disregarded and only the 90% of values (Gauss) are used.
Yet most games balance around its top percentile, why? Because these player know how to play the game and understand the game mechanics while mid to low Elo have other variables that can cause imbalance. Generally when considering balance, balancing for the top percent allows the lower Elo to follow suit as the top percent always define meta anyways.
Edit: Phones autocorrect is being a dick
bg /l
9 Apr 2018, 15:02 PM
#43
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yet most games balance around its top percentile, why? Because these player know how to play the game and understand the game mechanics while mid to low Elo have other variables that can cause imbalance. Generally when considering balance, balancing for the top percent allows the lower Elo to follow suit as the top percent always define meta anyways.
Edit: Phones autocorrect is being a dick
In lol if only a top player can use a champion it does not get nerfed it get redesigned.
I addition if you value top player so much read what Cruzz commented in this thread.
9 Apr 2018, 15:26 PM
#44
Posts: 1138 | Subs: 2
So pretty much game exists on for tournaments, top players, there are no different maps, no different situations, no different skill levels and playerbases.
Yeah, i'm pretty sure that tournament represents game balance perfectly.
It's not that I completely disagree, but the problem with gauging the balance from automatch is the matchmaking, which is supposed mitigate the combined effect of player skill and faction power.
With the data from automatch you probably can check for stuff that the matchmaker does not attempt to compensate for; likely this would include the strength of certain team compositions (like, OH/OH vs. OH/OKM vs. OKW/OKW), or how well theses teams do on certain maps.
Simply "is axis better than allies in 2v2", erm, well, I don't think that can get very good data on that from all automatches, let alone individual player experience.
Stats from tournaments are of course problematic as well (for starters due to small sample sizes), and while you might have been able to find a hint of certain factions being UP or OP in past tournament statistics, they only thing they always proved is that statements like "faction X can't win vs. faction Y" are wrong....
9 Apr 2018, 15:34 PM
#45
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
In lol if only a top player can use a champion it does not get nerfed it get redesigned.
I addition if you value top player so much read what Cruzz commented in this thread.
I'm quite positive that quite a lot of players do not play SC2 at that top 5% level, yet I do not see Blizzard redesigning the factions to appease people who fail completely or are unable to get over 50% W:L ratio.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Apr 2018, 15:35 PM
#46
1 Posts: 1276
Why do people on .org sit here and debate how to go about balance according to other games rather than the issue of balance of 2v2s?
can we stay on topic?
can we stay on topic?
9 Apr 2018, 15:41 PM
#47
Posts: 823 | Subs: 3
Imo, as someone who actualli does do 2s, i gotta agree with the objections of Butcher, but as Stark said, theres stuff to counter it. As Germans ur mistakes are just punished much more. Armi Composition etc.
Me: I am scared, that i will need to shake ma head the same as when i read ur posts, so i rather not
Katitof: Its not even close to me even at my worst in the past, imagine ullu, incendiary, aaa, vetlolcake and disto merge into one mega axis zord with forcefield protecting it from accepting any factual data. Add to that a victim card(his rumblings at my PM).
Katitof: Its not even close to me even at my worst in the past, imagine ullu, incendiary, aaa, vetlolcake and disto merge into one mega axis zord with forcefield protecting it from accepting any factual data. Add to that a victim card(his rumblings at my PM).
9 Apr 2018, 15:53 PM
#48
Posts: 390 | Subs: 2
My thoughts on 2v2 balance since the latest patch:
USF
Brits
Soviets
Ost
OKW
USF
- Jackson is over-performing, especially coupled with popcap manipulation allowing them to be spammed.
- Indirect fire options are very strong compared to OKW, Ost can keep up for the most part.
- Infantry is in a good spot.
Brits
- Double bren Tommies are overperforming, they should be limited to one LMG.
- Indirect fire options are lacking now that the mortar pit has been nerfed into the ground.
- Lack of vehicle snare can be really painful.
- Firefly feels very balanced compared to the Jackson.
Soviets
- All openers (Cons/T1/T2) are very strong. Sniper being OP on most maps.
- Katyusha is way too effective at long range. It can safely get wipes and vets up very quickly.
- SU76 is over-performing. Its range/pen need to go down, and the barrage needs to cost munitions.
- SU85 is a monster with vet, possibly over-performing.
- PPSH cons are too cost-effective, leaving Shocks with no place in the game.
- Guards are back to being the jack of all trades elite inf. The buff to PTRS damage vs infantry was completely unnecessary.
Ost
- Mortar is over-performing, especially vs Brits early game.
- Grens are incredibly fragile mid/late game; I'd love to see a 5th man either via vet like REs or via upgrade like Brits.
- 222 is a joke unit that really needs some love vs snipers especially.
- Panther is in an awkward spot. Is it a TD, or is it a brawler? Pick one and give it the same treatment that its allied counterparts get.
OKW
- Good aggressive early game.
- Vet system needs an overhaul, right now it's inconsistent and often detrimental. Make vet levels 1-3 equal in strength and attainability to other factions and levels 4 & 5 unlock abilities across the board.
- Popcap numbers need to be brought down on a lot of units now that they're not nearly as strong; vehicles mostly.
- Struggles vs both maxim and sniper openers from Soviets.
- Same Panther issues as Ost.
9 Apr 2018, 16:18 PM
#49
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
In lol if only a top player can use a champion it does not get nerfed it get redesigned.
I addition if you value top player so much read what Cruzz commented in this thread.
Me and Chino had a good discussion on this topic and I find that if you prefer balancing based on the top percent and the majority your opinion on balance is different. Personally coming from a moba background balancing through the top percent is my preferred method but a majority standpoint has its merits
I read Cruzz’s Post and I agree with everything he said, on top of that I reread it Incase I missed something and still agree with what he said
bg /l
9 Apr 2018, 16:18 PM
#50
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
Never seen so much out of date shit in a balance thread before, maybe you guys should work on your builds, try out new units.
Gren fragile meme is long dead, axis have better value units for trading, the good allied off-maps are much better in 1v1 than 2v2, axis still has aura units that haven't been touched in years and are completely op, axis has better indirect across the board, heavies are almost always useless at this point.
Gren fragile meme is long dead, axis have better value units for trading, the good allied off-maps are much better in 1v1 than 2v2, axis still has aura units that haven't been touched in years and are completely op, axis has better indirect across the board, heavies are almost always useless at this point.
 | Playercard of Siddolio | |||||||||||||||||||
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9 Apr 2018, 16:21 PM
#51
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
Where any of you get the idea that axis get more rewarded for squad preservation is just plain dumb, good luck reinvesting 120 muni into infantry over and over again so they can get rewiped by brumm/werfer.
What the fuck are you losing axis infantry to other than a centaur
What the fuck are you losing axis infantry to other than a centaur
| Playercard of Siddolio | |||||||||||||||||||
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9 Apr 2018, 16:22 PM
#52
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
Where any of you get the idea that axis get more rewarded for squad preservation is just plain dumb, good luck reinvesting 120 muni into infantry over and over again so they can get rewiped by brumm/werfer.
What the fuck are you losing axis infantry to other than a centaur
Grenades OP Kappa
bg /l
9 Apr 2018, 16:23 PM
#53
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
Grenades OP Kappa
Right so it is as I thought.
L
2
P
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9 Apr 2018, 16:25 PM
#54
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
Right so it is as I thought.
L
2
P
Its the lag not me Lag 2 play
bg /l
9 Apr 2018, 16:26 PM
#55
14 Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9
Post #31 reported - and invised - disrespectful to the Devs.
Back to topic.
Back to topic.
9 Apr 2018, 16:35 PM
#56
Posts: 2742
Grens are incredibly fragile mid/late game; I'd love to see a 5th man either via vet like REs or via upgrade like Brits.
Gren fragile meme is long dead, axis have better value units for trading, the good allied off-maps are much better in 1v1 than 2v2, axis still has aura units that haven't been touched in years and are completely op, axis has better indirect across the board, heavies are almost always useless at this point.
I think it's rather indicative that a reduction in received damage from the p4 command aura is equivalent to a 5th member. Though the auras are far more meaningful for the effect on other tanks, it's very effective for infantry as well.
I'd rather ostheer have lategame fuel upgrades that increase the vet bonuses of their infantry/tanks at this point.
Essentially upgrades that make gren vet scale into stormtrooper level stats and such.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
9 Apr 2018, 16:59 PM
#57
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I think it's rather indicative that a reduction in received damage from the p4 command aura is equivalent to a 5th member.
And it indicates how it is a problem.
9 Apr 2018, 16:59 PM
#58
Posts: 2145 | Subs: 2
My thoughts on 2v2 balance since the latest patch:
USF
- Jackson is over-performing, especially coupled with popcap manipulation allowing them to be spammed.
- Indirect fire options are very strong compared to OKW, Ost can keep up for the most part.
- Infantry is in a good spot.
Brits
- Double bren Tommies are overperforming, they should be limited to one LMG.
- Indirect fire options are lacking now that the mortar pit has been nerfed into the ground.
- Lack of vehicle snare can be really painful.
- Firefly feels very balanced compared to the Jackson.
Soviets
- All openers (Cons/T1/T2) are very strong. Sniper being OP on most maps.
- Katyusha is way too effective at long range. It can safely get wipes and vets up very quickly.
- SU76 is over-performing. Its range/pen need to go down, and the barrage needs to cost munitions.
- SU85 is a monster with vet, possibly over-performing.
- PPSH cons are too cost-effective, leaving Shocks with no place in the game.
- Guards are back to being the jack of all trades elite inf. The buff to PTRS damage vs infantry was completely unnecessary.
Ost
- Mortar is over-performing, especially vs Brits early game.
- Grens are incredibly fragile mid/late game; I'd love to see a 5th man either via vet like REs or via upgrade like Brits.
- 222 is a joke unit that really needs some love vs snipers especially.
- Panther is in an awkward spot. Is it a TD, or is it a brawler? Pick one and give it the same treatment that its allied counterparts get.
OKW
- Good aggressive early game.
- Vet system needs an overhaul, right now it's inconsistent and often detrimental. Make vet levels 1-3 equal in strength and attainability to other factions and levels 4 & 5 unlock abilities across the board.
- Popcap numbers need to be brought down on a lot of units now that they're not nearly as strong; vehicles mostly.
- Struggles vs both maxim and sniper openers from Soviets.
- Same Panther issues as Ost.
This post was too well written, not overtly biased, and efficiently presented. It also failed to mock noobs or incite hatred. Please leave
9 Apr 2018, 17:13 PM
#59
Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36
Tho i am wondering 0 words to Stug from wehrmacht and jp4 from okw^^ LUL
Rest sounds ok.
And yes Sully doesn't get the rules in balance forum.
Imagine everyone would make suchs threads; moderators and trolls had nothing to do here. FeelsBadMan.
Rest sounds ok.
And yes Sully doesn't get the rules in balance forum.
Imagine everyone would make suchs threads; moderators and trolls had nothing to do here. FeelsBadMan.
9 Apr 2018, 17:40 PM
#60
1 Posts: 1276
5Th man USF rifle needs a buff to not die within the first 3 seconds of combat and reduce the overall dps .
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