No Point to Schwerer Flak anymore?

I mentioned this in the shoutbox but am making post about it instead.

Is there any point anymore to the Schwerer Flak if you can't really put it forward with the multitude of ways the Allies have to destroy it in one or two attempts?

So many people say to this, "Well you should put it in your base then". But then what is the point of it?

What if the Schwerer was somehow cheaper, but came without the Flak (to reward those who confine it to the base)? The option to upgrade the Flak at cost would be a very fast, almost instantaneous upgrade, to prevent being caught out in mid build if you do risk a forward base.

I think it is only fair to give the OKW something in return for volunteering to neuter their T3 by putting it in base.

Another common response to this is to put the Schwerer on a passive cutoff. But in my experience (especially in 2v2) is that as soon as the HQ is seen it becomes the focus for efforts to destroy it as it is the key to armour production for OKW and hence it's destruction is an easy way to win.

The ways to destroy it are exactly the same for last 4 years, why now would that suddenly become an issue?

Also, the only way to make the flak upgrade would be to add an additional muni cost to it.

It can never have lower fuel cost, because its a tech structure, giving you access to end of tech units, not an emplacement.

Major arty was buffed wasn't it? Also it seems more people use the mortar flares from the soviets nowadays and there is definitely a lot more smoke.

Maybe a base bound HQ should get a production speed bonus then. There has to be something in return for the game design rendering one of the few advantages of the OKW (a free with tech emplacement) useless.

The choice is yours. Do you want its primary function to be its supression or its production? Plop it on your cut off and get the best of both.

People seem to talk like it's a binary choice between building the Schwerer at the back of your base or on the front lines. You do neither: you build it in the backline where it protects you from backcappers but is impractical for the enemy to launch a full assault against.

People seem to talk like it's a binary choice between building the Schwerer at the back of your base or on the front lines. You do neither: you build it in the backline where it protects you from backcappers but is impractical for the enemy to launch a full assault against.

I never build a Schwerer on the front lines (unless I am already stomping). This salty thread or whatever you want to call it is coming off of a game where I built the schwerer back at the cutoff for Rails and Metal just like you say. As soon as it was noticed, it was destroyed about 20 seconds later, just before my first tank was out. It wasn't long before I was dead as my teammate could not take up the slack.

Of course the opponents teased me that I shouldn't build a forward base then. And hence this thread.

It's difficult to discuss individual examples without the context: friendly and hostile army compositions, where your army was at time and where the front line was at time.

I think that building the truck successfully should bestow the ability to produce the units at the HQ truck. This way the bonuses associated with the truck can be put out into the field while not being an immediate "I win" victory condition for allies.

Losing the flak truck, from my experience, is almost always a loss.

I think OKW players should have the option whether they wanna pay 120 fuel for a flak or lets say 80 fuel for a no flak HQ building instead. 120 fuel is obviously overpriced for a piece of tech but the price of a free flak is priced in. It's too easy to destroy the OKW flak HQ. Off maps, tanks, TD's at guns, even double heavy mortars.

That could work Sinthe. Though there would have to be a module in the base which could be destroyed in base rapes. But maybe a bit too similar to USF where instead of free officer you get free truck with the tech.

Alternatively there could be an ability to salvage the schwerer to regain some of the expense, allowing it to be set up again without falling doubly behind. It's too luck oriented at the moment if the opponent's spot it and at what time. This game should not have luck reliance for such dramatic game changing events, only smaller ones. Relic rightfully got rid of squad wiping mines and made demos less luck oriented. Its fair then to do something to soften the momentous loss the okw face if schwerer goes down.

1. OKW schwerer is overpriced for this "advantage"
2. its to fragil and there are much more option to kill it....more than before 4 years ago (more fractions, more commander, better callins, better TDs, better arty, etc)
3. OKW lakc ressources income compared to other fractions because of no caches ...and when you look that the whole OKW was nerfed and allies was buffed...there is no more resoans for this "no caches allowed maulus"


solutions (choose one...or maybe two):
> give it a brace
> give it better surviabilty
> make it cheaper
> make flak optional
> make it be to get mobil again after building

For once I agree with Katitof, nothing has changed. If you place it carefully it can still be a major pain in the ass for the opponent.

I also agree with Katitof. I haven't seen any difference either. I had to adapt my play-style with recent balance changes, but that's it. That's the programming that I've been following for a while:

For each map, I place my Schwerer either at position A, B or C, depending if the enemy with faction X, Y, or Z is doing tactic D, E or F. If the enemy is attempting to counter my Schwerer with counter G, H or I, I counter their counter with my counter T, E or F. There's only a handful of ways to counter my Schwerer on A, B or C, so I most likely have to use tactic T, E, or F to protect it from G, H, or I, when it is attacked by faction X, Y or Z. Rinse and repeat for every map.

It's only when the enemies get more creative that I struggles - but then I think that I've been outplayed, or that the Schwerer has closed a sector for long enough.

I would argue that allot have changed.

1) The changes to FRP made aggressive placement of medic truck far less rewarding and that effects Schwerer also.

2) The nerfs to Leig also made Schwerer more vulnerable to indirect fire.

Generally speaking OKW are very far from original design and one should probably rethink the whole truck role.

My suggestion was that instead of forcing OKW into big risk rewards decisions truck could become decision with less impact.

For instance the limit to 3 could be removed and they could come with extra utility of serving as Ostheer command/reinforcement Bunkers and the production could come with upgrades that also increase armor HP.

That the player could have better control on how much he wants to invest in the trucks.

The fuel cost of the Schwerer HQ is OKW's teching cost. Reducing its cost would accelerate medium armor.

The current cost of using the Schwerer's flak gun in a direct fire role (rather than as an anti-skillplane gun) is the risk of losing it. The more aggressively you place it the more damage it deals but the greater the risk of losing the thing.

I understand the argument that it's too punishing to lose, however. A dead Schwerer almost always results in a Command Panther or KT, which suggests rebuilding it isn't considered a viable option.

We're very unlikely to see any major overhauls at this point so the easiest solution is to move a chunk of the cost of the Schwerer HQ to an unlock tech. Think Battle Phases or the AEC/Bofors/Hammer/Anvil unlocks.

Say, 50MP 70FU to unlock the Schwerer HQ, 150MP 50FU to build it.

It still costs the same to build your first but if you have to build a second you're set back a bit rather than completely hamstrung. The sweet spot for the Schwerer's price is where losing it is painful enough to deter using it like a Bofors but not so crippling that you're forced into call-ins.

I never build a Schwerer on the front lines (unless I am already stomping). This salty thread or whatever you want to call it is coming off of a game where I built the schwerer back at the cutoff for Rails and Metal just like you say. As soon as it was noticed, it was destroyed about 20 seconds later, just before my first tank was out. It wasn't long before I was dead as my teammate could not take up the slack.

Of course the opponents teased me that I shouldn't build a forward base then. And hence this thread.

North or south spawn ? Left or right side? How was it destroyed? By units or offmap ? IF you don't have a pocket healing HQ, a map small enough to have the Schwerer protected by at least one of the players at all times or if you are not spawned on the "defensive" side of a 2v2 map, you put it on the base.
Rails and Metals force the players bases to be divided, which makes retreating leaving a side really vulnerable.

On teamgames, value of forward truck lose value as they can be focus fired by 2 or more players units and offmaps.

1. OKW schwerer is overpriced for this "advantage"

That is cool but untrue-schwerer flak is completely and 100% free. The only cost you pay is the tech cost.

2. its to fragil and there are much more option to kill it....more than before 4 years ago (more fractions, more commander, better callins, better TDs, better arty, etc)

Its most durable structure in the game, literally ALL off maps that threatened it were nerf hammered, the only single Option that exists now and did not 3-4 years ago is USF mortar, so you are wrong again. All TDs are LESS effective against it then they used to be at the time and arty Performance against it is much worse since precision strikes were removed.

3. OKW lakc ressources income compared to other fractions because of no caches ...and when you look that the whole OKW was nerfed and allies was buffed...there is no more resoans for this "no caches allowed maulus"

In Team games you have allies, in 1v1 no one builds more then 1 Cache if any at all, if you salvage wrecks you will get as much as you would get out of cache.
OKW was also overpowered for literally years and lets not pretend allies didnt got any nerfs.

If you can not protect it, place it in your base.

Yea the major problem is noobs placing this building in middle of the map or next to a VP. Play smart!

1vs1 maps are too small to position it in a way that is immune to artillery from the inside the enemy's base (or thereabouts).

It's utter trash design that Brits get Brace while OKW gets nothing.

But with Relic's blatant Allied bias, this is nothing surprising.

As I've noted many times, nothing Axis factions do poses any threat to Allied players, while everything Allies get is threatening to Axis players.

You want to take out a British emplacement? You have to commit obscene resources to doing so because of Brace making them effectively invincible, and even if you succeed, that doesn't set the enemy back one bit because of the ludicrous resource income disparity between Brits and Axis factions (same for USF and Axis factions, with USF being able to field an equal or greater number of infantry AND build emplacements).

You want to take out an OKW HQ? You just dedicate a single mortar to it that can't even be counter barraged by the abysmal OKW infantry support gun that gets instawiped due to lack of retreat whenever it's rolled outside the base.

Zero threat.

British emplacements stopped being invincible in DBP. The only way to restore them to their ghastly original Sim City state is to take Advanced Emplacement Regiment. And if they do that, take Fortifications, drop Zeroing Artillery on them and delete their entire 'army' with one ability.