The age-old double soviet sniper conundrum

Wow this debate certainly deteriorated into the gutter faster than I anticipated

Anyways I so not recall the pre-patch 222 which apparantly was too strong against snipers, but from my personal experience I would argue that it seems to be a bit on the weak side at the moment. I appears to me that the scout car was basically intended as a sniper hunter considering it's long detection range and frankly being pretty average at everything else and having quite a slim window as the apex predator. So in this regard I think it could possibly be a tad bit stronger at chasing retreating squads, as it is still a risky endeavour.

Just my two cents on the matter, but I don't think they are broken by any means and overall I'm really enjoying the current balance

The current OST meta for sniper counters are mortars, mostly just praying to RNG jesus that the turbomortar hits a lucky oneshot.

I mostly play 2on2, but when my OST side faces double SOV snipers, we decide to swap places. OST really struggles against them - the lack of early 222 is certainly the reason.

This was the line of thought in my opinion:

1- Stealth was really cancerous when you knew how to properly exploit it aka engage from out of cover and quickly re enter to gain stealth. Combat will had no repercussion.

Therefore this was fixed so you MUST shoot from cover to regain faster cammo.

2- 222 was bugged, both cost and MG. MG was not properly working since like release of the game. Therefore as a pre-emptive action, the performance was tone down.

IMO probably to account for the reduction on survivability on snipers.


What could be done:

A) Set MG modifier against sniper to 1.0 or 1.25. Chasing sniper with 222 and not killing it is silly.

B) Make the spotter mosin nagant rifle from the SOV sniper the weapon to be transferable. This makes counter sniping possible as you can't be sniped back while still keeping the soviet sniper squad alive.

C) Make all soviet flares reveal stealth units (trip wire, mortar and sniper). For trying: either reduce sniper flare cost or make it not break stealth. Now you both OH/SU sniper been able to 1 shot each other through the use of their vet 1 ability.

It would be cool if they gave incendiary rounds to the ostheer sniper at vet 0. I found out you can solo the soviet sniper if you use the incendiary shot first followed by a normal shot. They could remove the stun until the ostheer sniper reaches vet 1.

This was the line of thought in my opinion:

B) Make the spotter mosin nagant rifle from the SOV sniper the weapon to be transferable. This makes counter sniping possible as you can't be sniped back while still keeping the soviet sniper squad alive.

IMO a easier to implement fix would be the reset of aim time after 1 of the models is killed.

Also, don't play okw.

You mean play double IG witha accuracy bulletin is not working ? Kappa

The current OST meta for sniper counters are mortars, mostly just praying to RNG jesus that the turbomortar hits a lucky oneshot.

Is it just me or is this arguably one of the best arguments that something is off about the balance? When the recommendation for taking out snipers is to bombard them with mortars rather than chase them down with scout cars it seems to me that something is not really working as intended

C) Make all soviet flares reveal stealth units (trip wire, mortar and sniper). For trying: either reduce sniper flare cost or make it not break stealth. Now you both OH/SU sniper been able to 1 shot each other through the use of their vet 1 ability.

I'd be up for the idea of having every recon ability (flares included) reveal stealth units. It feels a bit inconsistent only to have a handful of abilities that look and feel have different results (or no impact) on stealth.

I will try to clarify some things:

All sniper have a target size of 1.15

Ostheer and UKF have 82 HP

Soviet have 64 HP per entity for a total 128

Vs small arm fire that translates:

that Snipers have 71.3 effective HP (EHP) and the sniper team has 111.3 EHP (roughly +56% more hp)

Vs explosive/ballistic weapons:
Thing become a bit more complicated since the team will take more damage if both entities are inside the blast area.

In order to be killed with one shot the snipers need to be within a blast radius above 82 HP which is different for different weapons while the team need to have both entities inside a blast radius of 64 HP.

So it really depends on the type blast radius of specific weapon and where it lands relative to the position of the team.

222 vs snipers
The 222 has to 2 weapons. The kwk38 20mm autocannon and the MG34 coaxial mg.

The 20mm has very low accuracy and has very little chance of scoring a "natural" hit on sniper (around 6% close) so it only helpful via AOE damage.

Even that is a low chance since the AOE is 1 while the scatter is wide (scatter angle 5, ratio 1, distance 6). Even if it land with in 1 unit it only do 5. For practical reason the damage from the 20mm is negligible.

The coaxial MG34 has a x0.75 penalty vs sniper.

The DPS of the MG34 vs sniper is (range 0/10/20/30)

12.34/10.71/9.09/7.11


That means that theoretically if the 222 was firing only with its MG even at range 0 would need around 10 second to kill the sniper team.

That might seem as a sort time but things chance radically when moving penalty cuts the DPS in half and retreating bonuses lowering the DPS further to:
2.47/2.14/1.82/1.42

Now the 222 needs around 52 secs to kill a retreating sniper team even firing at range 0.


Suggestions:
Imo one could try to reduce the moving penalties of the 222 and the bonuses of sniper on retreat, one should also rethink the 0.75 damage modifier vs sniper on MG.

I would further suggest to reintroduce the 221 that could come earlier be cheaper and have bonuses vs sniper while the 222 could become more expensive and tougher and better suited vs lightly armored targets.

One could also try to change the 20mm cannon to work with accuracy and AOE similar to Centaur's dual 20mm cannons so it can also contribute vs snipers.

222 could either be an upgrade that costed manpower/fuel or a separate vehicle.

Now the 222 needs around 52 secs to kill a retreating sniper team even firing at range 0.

If this calculation is correct, then I really think this is an issue. IMO the primary role of a 222 should be recon and chasing snipers, while it could be (and actually is) sub-par in most other departments.

Is it just me or is this arguably one of the best arguments that something is off about the balance? When the recommendation for taking out snipers is to bombard them with mortars rather than chase them down with scout cars it seems to me that something is not really working as intended

Its like a mix of the 222 being shit at killing snipers and the ost mortar being really strong and having a good chance of hitting a sniper if he isnt constantly microing it.

Wow this debate certainly deteriorated into the gutter faster than I anticipated

Anyways I so not recall the pre-patch 222 which apparantly was too strong against snipers, but from my personal experience I would argue that it seems to be a bit on the weak side at the moment. I appears to me that the scout car was basically intended as a sniper hunter considering it's long detection range and frankly being pretty average at everything else and having quite a slim window as the apex predator. So in this regard I think it could possibly be a tad bit stronger at chasing retreating squads, as it is still a risky endeavour.

Just my two cents on the matter, but I don't think they are broken by any means and overall I'm really enjoying the current balance

On the saltiness of replies : Lol, this is COH2 we are talking about. Most games have 1500 to
5000 threads. COH2 is what? 450,000 threads? (50,000? 500,000?) most about I love scissors,
please ban rock or some similar thing.

Try playing soviet yourself. Soviet Sniper is very squishy.
It doesn't have explosive bullet, and it has bolt rifle sniper vs Semi Auto Rifle Sniper of Wehr
sniper. Wehr sniper cannot be wiped by a mortar (82 life vs 80 dmg) or grenade.

Single Mortar round or Rifle Grenade is insta wipe for Soviet Sniper.

It's a lot harder to vet the soviet sniper team.
It's stealth is a lot harder to manage.
It aims and reloads a lot slower.

Soviets don't have heal-in-the-field.
So Wehr sniper can stay on the field longer.
Wehr sniper using explosive bullet can dual shot wipe the entire soviet SOV team.
It takes micro, but is doable. Katitof explained how.

Wehr mortar is one of best ROF and accuracy in game.
If it hits, the chances of a wipe are really strong, since the SOV models are the LOWEST
HEALTH IN THE ENTIRE GAME!

That has more to do with the 222 than with the soviet sniper lol

The "cant be wiped by a grenade" is misleading. Tho its technically correct, 1. How the HELL did you manage to get a grenade off on a sniper (and why would you try?) And 2. All the units i know of that have grenades ALSO have guns (the kind that shoot, and do damage) so even if you DID for some reason throw a grenade at a sniper (again....why?) It would almost 100% of the time kill, assuming you managed to hit it once with quite literally a single bullet from ANY gun in the game...

The "cant be wiped by a grenade" is misleading. Tho its technically correct, 1. How the HELL did you manage to get a grenade off on a sniper (and why would you try?) And 2. All the units i know of that have grenades ALSO have guns (the kind that shoot, and do damage) so even if you DID for some reason throw a grenade at a sniper (again....why?) It would almost 100% of the time kill, assuming you managed to hit it once with quite literally a single bullet from ANY gun in the game...

Riflenades are the exception there, being the (only) grenade I see killing soviet snipers, (like, ever.)

Riflenades are the exception there, being the (only) grenade I see killing soviet snipers, (like, ever.)

Valid, but allied infantry could be using bundled nades for all the difference itll make against the sniper who would just retreat (or die to gunfire)

Edit: oshit forgot about the brit sniper.... My bad

Suggestions:
Imo one could try to reduce the moving penalties of the 222 and the bonuses of sniper on retreat, one should also rethink the 0.75 damage modifier vs sniper on MG.

I would further suggest to reintroduce the 221 that could come earlier be cheaper and have bonuses vs sniper while the 222 could become more expensive and tougher and better suited vs lightly armored targets.

One could also try to change the 20mm cannon to work with accuracy and AOE similar to Centaur's dual 20mm cannons so it can also contribute vs snipers.

222 could either be an upgrade that costed manpower/fuel or a separate vehicle.

If you improve the 222 to fight snipers, Let's improve on anything and soviet against snipers? I personally am not a fan of the game in T1, I must now, suffer the whole game? I also want something(like improve 222) for controlling the snipers ost

On the saltiness of replies : Lol, this is COH2 we are talking about. Most games have 1500 to
5000 threads. COH2 is what? 450,000 threads? (50,000? 500,000?) most about I love scissors,
please ban rock or some similar thing.

Try playing soviet yourself. Soviet Sniper is very squishy.
It doesn't have explosive bullet, and it has bolt rifle sniper vs Semi Auto Rifle Sniper of Wehr
sniper. Wehr sniper cannot be wiped by a mortar (82 life vs 80 dmg) or grenade.

Single Mortar round or Rifle Grenade is insta wipe for Soviet Sniper.

It's a lot harder to vet the soviet sniper team.
It's stealth is a lot harder to manage.
It aims and reloads a lot slower.

Soviets don't have heal-in-the-field.
So Wehr sniper can stay on the field longer.
Wehr sniper using explosive bullet can dual shot wipe the entire soviet SOV team.
It takes micro, but is doable. Katitof explained how.

Wehr mortar is one of best ROF and accuracy in game.
If it hits, the chances of a wipe are really strong, since the SOV models are the LOWEST
HEALTH IN THE ENTIRE GAME!

What do you talk there? sov sniper is the most durable sniper ingame and sinc eit has 2 models you cant kill it with it a ost sniper.

what other possibletys are there? 222? not really? lucky mortar hit? only against noob sov sniper player with no babysitting.

riflesnades and other grenades? hmm.no..

ambushing? yeah...but only vs a noob who has no flank safteys.

tell us...why means a lucky motar shell that the sov sniper is "very squishy"? if you manage it to be on range and on the walk...it will need long time and much luck to hit and kill a sov sniper...and much micro

If you improve the 222 to fight snipers, Let's improve on anything and soviet against snipers? I personally am not a fan of the game in T1, I must now, suffer the whole game? I also want something(like improve 222) for controlling the snipers ost

Cheap M3 kills Ost Sniper better than 222 with 2cm gun and MG 34 trying to kill a soviet sniper.

Cheap M3 kills Ost Sniper better than 222 with 2cm gun and MG 34 trying to kill a soviet sniper.

how many snipers(good players) have you killed with M3

and if I build T1 (which I don't like to do) to control a sniper, I'd better build my sniper (for the long run)