Volksgrenadiers [DBP]

Just asking opinions and eventually to provide feedback, please avoid voting if you don't play okw, or if you play ONLY okw and only vote if you have properly played with and against volks in DBP.

"Volksgrenadiers scaled too well vs other core infantry and overshadowed much of the OKW's own elite infantry. To compensate for this, the following changes have been made:

Veterancy Changes

Veterancy 3 Received Accuracy bonus increased from 0.9 0.86
Volks require cover and to be stationary to benefit from their Vet 4 sight bonus
Vet 3's passive healing ability moved to Vet 5
All combat bonuses from Vet 4 and Vet 5 (+15% accuracy bonus & -20% weapon cooldown)"

Feel free to add suggestions on how to balance/rework the unit.

I would like a separate option for question one.
I don't think volks are too strong or too weak, but I don't think they are balanced. On their own they are fine but they do not fit into the dynamics of the other factions well, because of the stg upgrade. I would like to see them reworked, not nerfed. I don't think dbp goes far enough to address volks issues.

I would like a separate option for question one.
I don't think volks are too strong or too weak, but I don't think they are balanced. On their own they are fine but they do not fit into the dynamics of the other factions well, because of the stg upgrade. I would like to see them reworked, not nerfed. I don't think dbp goes far enough to address volks issues.

Oh yeah sure, that's the main issue imho too, and that's one of the main point that should be discussed.
How would you redesign it ?

Edited the poll to reflect Tobis' wishes.

Edited the poll to reflect Tobis' wishes.

Thx buddy

Like Tobis stated it's more of the faction overall than the Volks themselves (even though it is welcomed they get beaten more easily with vetted Rifles and elite infantry) Its the fact they get sudden spike in power when they get STGs and incendiary grenades. Incendiary grenades are great due to have so much utility due to not only countering garrisons but denying garrisons AND cover as well. Did I mention it has a very quick throw time? A common occurrence is having a squad behind green or yellow cover and Volks can move and grenade and still do good DPS due to STGs on the move accuracy. You dodge but now you're in the open or have to move further back while still getting shot by STGs.

I wouldn't mind if they kept STGs but the incendiary grenade is where the issue lies. If they gave them their normal grenade back it would be fair enough as volks have improved quite a bit in terms of combat power than when they were 235 MP especially given the new garrison changes. It'd also encourage more Liegs use to counter garrisons.

I don't know what how Volks could get reworked if their STGs were removed.

As I said before, a more elegant fix to the STG issue is to scale them with the number of trucks deployed. One truck deployed would unlock the upgrade with 1 STG, two trucks, 2 stgs, 3 trucks, definitely not 3 stgs because of the collective allied aneurysm but something nice.

The current direction of trying to nerf the vet 4/5 of the volks even when at that point in the game they are being out scaled by double bren/bar blobs is using a rubber mallet as a saw.

Maybe the Obers wouldn't be overshadowed if they were worth a damn.

I'll say the same thing I always say: veterancy doesn't matter whatsoever when a unit is unviable at 0 vet, like Volksgrenadiers are, because performance at 0 vet decides whether the unit is constantly catching up to enemy infantry all match long.

Volks don't have immense survivability (received accuracy or health per model) out the gate, they don't have any serious damage out the gate, they don't have the advantage of six models, and on top of it all, they have a fail-grenade that seems to have been given to them purely to avoid too many similarities with Ostheer Grenadiers.

The vet 3-5 bonuses mean squat all if you lose the entire map in the first 5-7 minutes of the match.

Like Tobis stated it's more of the faction overall than the Volks themselves (even though it is welcomed they get beaten more easily with vetted Rifles and elite infantry) Its the fact they get sudden spike in power when they get STGs and incendiary grenades. Incendiary grenades are great due to have so much utility due to not only countering garrisons but denying garrisons AND cover as well. Did I mention it has a very quick throw time? A common occurrence is having a squad behind green or yellow cover and Volks can move and grenade and still do good DPS due to STGs on the move accuracy. You dodge but now you're in the open or have to move further back while still getting shot by STGs.

I wouldn't mind if they kept STGs but the incendiary grenade is where the issue lies. If they gave them their normal grenade back it would be fair enough as volks have improved quite a bit in terms of combat power than when they were 235 MP especially given the new garrison changes. It'd also encourage more Liegs use to counter garrisons.

I don't know what how Volks could get reworked if their STGs were removed.

Have you ever tried actually keeping your squad in the building that's been set on fire by a Volks incendiary grenade? Just curious. Because if you had, you'd see that they're purely psychological noob traps. They utterly underperform even Molotovs, let alone all other fire-based denial tools in the game.

Make Volks 260 MP and be done with it.

I'm ambivalent about their cost and if or when they get passive healing.

I think volks should get 2 stgs and 3 mp40s with their 60 muni upgrade.

I think volks should have their original normal grenade.

I think the upgraded volks should get incendiary nades. (Or smoke, and incendiary nades be a feuerstorm ability, considering the current proposed changes to that commander.)

Due to WFA tech structure, Volks & upgrades have to hold out against each of the following potential threats (both individually and as a combination of said threats):
- Penals, with de-facto mid-long-range good performance
- Tommies, with de-facto long-range performance
- Tommies & Brens
- Riflemen
- Riflemen & Bars
- Riflemen & LMG
- Conscripts
- Conscripts & PPSh

So, IMO, the only two upgrades that would work for that would be either:
- An LMG42 upgrade; in that case we also give OKW access to T0 weapons and effectively remove them from the game, because now they've become Ostheer
- The weird STG weapon curve they have which gives them certain ranges to perform vs the forementioned units for each matchup

I can't think of any curve that will work vs each of the forementioned threats, and I can't think of any combination of upgrades that would help Volks to fight.

If you think that forcing Volks to pick mp40 alone will solve anything, feel free to give it a whirl in DBP trying the firestorm doctrine. You can maybe use up to 1 squad of Volks max tactically, but upgrading all of your squads with mp40, or letting the rest of the squads unupgraded is suicide.

Sure, we could tweak the curves a bit if necessary, e.g., cost, to prevent snowballing, and fire-on-the-move performance to prevent blob-ability. However, volks need to have a role in the late-game which is ideally complementary to Obersoldaten, without turning OKW into Ostheer v2.0.

Due to WFA tech structure, Volks & upgrades have to hold out against each of the following potential threats (both individually and as a combination of said threats):
- Penals, with de-facto mid-long-range good performance
- Tommies, with de-facto long-range performance
- Tommies & Brens
- Riflemen
- Riflemen & Bars
- Riflemen & LMG
- Conscripts
- Conscripts & PPSh

So, IMO, the only two upgrades that would work for that would be either:
- An LMG42 upgrade; in that case we also give OKW access to T0 weapons and effectively remove them from the game, because now they've become Ostheer
- The weird STG weapon curve they have which gives them certain ranges to perform vs the forementioned units for each matchup

I can't think of any curve that will work vs each of the forementioned threats, and I can't think of any combination of upgrades that would help Volks to fight.

If you think that forcing Volks to pick mp40 alone will solve anything, feel free to give it a whirl in DBP trying the firestorm doctrine. You can maybe use up to 1 squad of Volks max tactically, but upgrading all of your squads with mp40, or letting the rest of the squads unupgraded is suicide.

Sure, we could tweak the curves a bit if necessary, e.g., cost, to prevent snowballing, and fire-on-the-move performance to prevent blob-ability. However, volks need to have a role in the late-game which is ideally complementary to Obersoldaten, without turning OKW into Ostheer v2.0.

Regarding the late game role:
Problem here is sturm, if there's a unit that deserve to scale as complementary to obersoldaten is sturmpios as close-mid range.

The stg actually was a good idea back when EVERYTHING from med sucked, including mg34.
The issues I see here (up to debate, I may look at it in a wrong way) are that:
1)volks aren't meant to scale as damage dealer as before, but they have been nerfed by completely removing combat bonuses, while will still require an investment in the form of stg

2)volks "powercreep" has been ACTUALLY buffed because realistically late game wasn't an issue: they have no chance in live against late game bren/bars, their problem was stg + luchs shock value that, like said before actually got buffed with RA buff

3)those that will refuse to go stg volks into luchs will IMHO, find too much of issues in countering enemy mainlines, after the 3 man min of stg bar will put ENORMOUS bleed that increase as the game proceed, ironically, I find obers less viable in DBP Non mech builds than live (not kidding) because of this.

4)alternative is call in infantry, and here we go with panzerfus, but after all, why take 250mp volks if 280mp panzerfus are much better, and newly buffed luftwaffe or jaegers ? I can feel this is going to be the "new" meta.

Honestly, i'm all for reverting any change to veterancy (except nonsense eagle eyes in cover, simply remove them, jaegers, panzerfus, recon, ir ht.., why should a mainline have it?), and simply remove stg, make volks cost 240mp,24mp to reinforce, REMOVE THE ABILITY TO BUILD SANDBAGS, maybe give them to sturm, with advantages like:
1) no sudden powercreep stg with good RA.
2) volks with no ability to provide green cover anywhere are much less powerful, now an actually expensive unit needs to do it (we all know it implies a lot).
3) volks still scale throughout the whole game, but aren't too powerful in their mid game like in DBP, volks will be a perfect weapon/vehicle recrewer and an antigarrison unit/snare unit that can still pull his weight.
4) blobs aren't as effective when 2/5 of your army doesn't have automatics..
5) ...but volks aren't per se too much of an investment, while still being unable to truly scale into late game effectively (considering the cost), which would make call in attractive

Regarding the late game role:
Problem here is sturm, if there's a unit that deserve to scale as complementary to obersoldaten is sturmpios as close-mid range.

The stg actually was a good idea back when EVERYTHING from med sucked, including mg34.
The issues I see here (up to debate, I may look at it in a wrong way) are that:
1)volks aren't meant to scale as damage dealer as before, but they have been nerfed by completely removing combat bonuses, while will still require an investment in the form of stg

2)volks "powercreep" has been ACTUALLY buffed because realistically late game wasn't an issue: they have no chance in live against late game bren/bars, their problem was stg + luchs shock value that, like said before actually got buffed with RA buff

3)those that will refuse to go stg volks into luchs will IMHO, find too much of issues in countering enemy mainlines, after the 3 man min of stg bar will put ENORMOUS bleed that increase as the game proceed, ironically, I find obers less viable in DBP Non mech builds than live (not kidding) because of this.

4)alternative is call in infantry, and here we go with panzerfus, but after all, why take 250mp volks if 280mp panzerfus are much better, and newly buffed luftwaffe or jaegers ? I can feel this is going to be the "new" meta.

Honestly, i'm all for reverting any change to veterancy (except nonsense eagle eyes in cover, simply remove them, jaegers, panzerfus, recon, ir ht.., why should a mainline have it?), and simply remove stg, make volks cost 240mp,24mp to reinforce, REMOVE THE ABILITY TO BUILD SANDBAGS, maybe give them to sturm, with advantages like:
1) no sudden powercreep stg with good RA.
2) volks with no ability to provide green cover anywhere are much less powerful, now an actually expensive unit needs to do it (we all know it implies a lot).
3) volks still scale throughout the whole game, but aren't too powerful in their mid game like in DBP, volks will be a perfect weapon/vehicle recrewer and an antigarrison unit/snare unit that can still pull his weight.
4) blobs aren't as effective when 2/5 of your army doesn't have automatics..
5) ...but volks aren't per se too much of an investment, while still being unable to truly scale into late game effectively (considering the cost), which would make call in attractive

Sturmpioneers are overburdened as they are. The problem is not the volksgrenadiers itself, but rather the situations they need to be able to tackle decently without making them useless. At the momen they tackle almost all situations either fairly decently or just too well. The problem the balance team has, I think, is to try and make them not able to tackle almost all situations without making them useless. This is hard because you end up making volks useless pretty quick..

The critical fallacy here is the assumption that infantry squads are only used to fight other infantry squads.

Volks with a full smg package can be used to clear team weapons, most prominently atgs and mgs. It's a tactical use that isn't just slugging manpower at manpower.

An smg squad also defends team weapons like isgs, raketens, and mgs from being overrun better than a rifled counterpart.

Team weapon management and support is a huge part of volks, or at least IMO they should be.

That kind of usage doesn't show up when calculating spreadsheets.

The critical fallacy here is the assumption that infantry squads are only used to fight other infantry squads.

Volks with a full smg package can be used to clear team weapons, most prominently atgs and mgs. It's a tactical use that isn't just slugging manpower at manpower.

An smg squad also defends team weapons like isgs, raketens, and mgs from being overrun better than a rifled counterpart.

That kind of usage doesn't show up when calculating spreadsheets.

And totally overlaps with sturmpios...

And totally overlaps with sturmpios...

With all the cost effective minelaying/sweeping/repairing/schrecking they do?

Sturms, of all units, kind of need overlaps to be able to offload their many roles.

With all the cost effective minelaying/sweeping/repairing/schrecking they do?

Sturms, of all units, kind of need overlaps to be able to offload their many roles.

shreck may as well never exist, 1 shreck is trash and people just get raketen
And ? their popcap/cost reflect the double role the unit has of cqb/engineers.
It doesn't mean that we need 1 more sturm unit, at least non doc.

Agree with the schrecks part.

The point is, for me, that Volks getting a full cqc upgrade instead isn't necessarily about their performance trying to outgun allied infantry squads. It is about giving OKW the potential for better unit synergy.