Volksgrenadiers [DBP]

Thing was OKW was meant to where Volks was a weak unit but supposedly backed by a strong engineer unit with light vehicles supplementing them until their elite infantry and tanks could come onto the field.

Issue was with Volks and shrecks, Sturmpioneer not being as strong as they needed to be, and their light vehicles being weak (AA halftrack) or too late (Luchs in flak HQ).

Due to WFA tech structure, Volks & upgrades have to hold out against each of the following potential threats (both individually and as a combination of said threats):
- Penals, with de-facto mid-long-range good performance
- Tommies, with de-facto long-range performance
- Tommies & Brens
- Riflemen
- Riflemen & Bars
- Riflemen & LMG
- Conscripts
- Conscripts & PPSh

So, IMO, the only two upgrades that would work for that would be either:
- An LMG42 upgrade; in that case we also give OKW access to T0 weapons and effectively remove them from the game, because now they've become Ostheer
- The weird STG weapon curve they have which gives them certain ranges to perform vs the forementioned units for each matchup

I can't think of any curve that will work vs each of the forementioned threats, and I can't think of any combination of upgrades that would help Volks to fight.

If you think that forcing Volks to pick mp40 alone will solve anything, feel free to give it a whirl in DBP trying the firestorm doctrine. You can maybe use up to 1 squad of Volks max tactically, but upgrading all of your squads with mp40, or letting the rest of the squads unupgraded is suicide.

Sure, we could tweak the curves a bit if necessary, e.g., cost, to prevent snowballing, and fire-on-the-move performance to prevent blob-ability. However, volks need to have a role in the late-game which is ideally complementary to Obersoldaten, without turning OKW into Ostheer v2.0.

Has there been any tests with adjusting the BAR and Bren for them to be stronger individually but unable to upgrade to two? Of course up the cost to 80 or even 90 munitions. The point would be to be strong enough to beat down Volksgrenadiers as the only reason I upgrade to two BARs is when I'm playing against OKW and need the extra BAR to trade effectively against Volks but against OST it is a bit too strong. The stronger but limited to one BAR would still beat Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers but not so strongly as dual BARs do now against OST.

This change would also encourage more elite troops from USF even though they aren't really used due to timing, CPs, and cost of the elite troops and upgrades needed for them.

Has there been any tests with adjusting the BAR and Bren for them to be stronger individually but unable to upgrade to two? Of course up the cost to 80 or even 90 munitions. The point would be to be strong enough to beat down Volksgrenadiers as the only reason I upgrade to two BARs is when I'm playing against OKW and need the extra BAR to trade effectively against Volks but against OST it is a bit too strong. The stronger but limited to one BAR would still beat Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers but not so strongly as dual BARs do now against OST.

This change would also encourage more elite troops from USF even though they aren't really used due to timing, CPs, and cost of the elite troops and upgrades needed for them.

We've mostly tried single Brens, but upping Tommy veterancy to be on par with their cost. It worked balance-wise. However, after having played enough of it and against it, it frankly felt boring:
- You're going to upgrade your single Bren as quickly as possible; same as the enemy
- You're probably going to buy a PIAT to fill up the other slot, because what else can you buy
- Then, aesthetically, you have two squads (grens and tommies) fighting against each other with one LMG each
- There's no longer a risk component to dropping guns for the enemy; not when you're only carrying one slot item
- There's no longer a dimention where one side gets more cost-efficient upgrades, but capped to one, and the other side has worse cost efficient but a higher cap

Thus, if slot weapons are ever to be nerfed, it would be better if the individual slot items get their stats lowered, but also become cheaper (but not lower than 45-50, otherwise, again, it becomes trivial).

ah...feels boring...so let it be OP vs ost...? Not a very good argue. ask a ost gren how he feel boring to equip only one LMG.

why is it boring for USF and UKF....but not for every other faction?

2 squads with vickers schred all axis infantery...

and please.. stop this bs: Vickers dropping frpom truck is really OP and bs ...you can equip cons/ penals with double vickers...wtf

Great points. Seems like youre advocating for OKW being a strong early game, weak mid game, strong late game faction. This is what OKW was mostly like when I started playing and its a direction that I can get behind.

One thing to keep in mind is that jli arent good enough as elite infantry (if they are even considered that) and falls are in a middling doctrine that only seems to be getting worse in dbp. Obers are great, but then you disincentivise the purchase of lught vehicles or anything that requires fuel because you want your t4 up asap. This also means that OKW gets punished for going callins in a way that no other faction is. Asymmetrical balance and all, but that would probably really hurt okw if they have to tech to be competitive with their infantry whilr other factions can have competitive infantry and a bunch of call in tanks. If callins were better balanced, then I would have no issue.

1- I would like a middle gap on T4 teching so you can pump out JPIV and Obers faster and locking the PIV/V and the gun after an upgrade. In a gross way, 1/3 of the cost to get T4 and 2/3 to tech.

2- In general, small arm DPS across the board on late game should go down IMO.

In that way, what i would suggest would make sense.

Volks are fine, their Stgs are fine, too. Base volks do meh damage especially as they face Riflemen and Penals who beat them to the pulp with semi-autos. Tommies used to be nigh invicible at the start as well, now its a lot better. Not having access the StG upgrade is laughable in the face of BAR/Bren blobs. It ain't that great on a single unit.

The original Shreck Volks was unusable for anything other than being cannon fodder or spammed massively since their base Kar98s did very little damage. Let's not go back there as it would seriously break the game.

What's not OK:
- they lack a weapon slot making them awkward in not being able to pick up any dropped items. Unlike all other mainline infantry squads, which can. They need to have an empty slot to even the playing field, Vet 4 if must be since they already lost a lot of veterancy there.

- Flame granades are somewhat problematic, though I don't see them being undodgable any more than you can't really dodge other granades either without taking some damage. The reason to implement them was to provide anti building ability against maxim spam cancer. The original potato smasher was simply too weak for this. The flame nade however was a bit of an overkill since unlike other granades, it actually foces (sidenote - Molotov on a cheaper Hurrah! unit does the same and nobody bats an eye) units out the building .

Now OKW has some smoke finally, perhaps the original Volks potato smasher granade back, but with much better damage modifier against buildings/heavy cover/emplacements, to keep its anti-building role, but perhaps with smaller AoE than regular granades. This would keep the unit relevant as an anti building unit, but without too good of regular granade that could overlap with Obers. The Flame Granade upgrade can stay as an ability with Feursturm doctrine.

I think the reason no one bats an eye at molotov is because that means fuel had been invested solely in getting molotovs, and the player is using conscripts.

Both of those are very significant build and tech choices.

Volks incendiary nades? Their STGs? Not so much. And by not so much, I mean not at all.

We've mostly tried single Brens, but upping Tommy veterancy to be on par with their cost. It worked balance-wise. However, after having played enough of it and against it, it frankly felt boring:
- You're going to upgrade your single Bren as quickly as possible; same as the enemy
- You're probably going to buy a PIAT to fill up the other slot, because what else can you buy
- Then, aesthetically, you have two squads (grens and tommies) fighting against each other with one LMG each
- There's no longer a risk component to dropping guns for the enemy; not when you're only carrying one slot item
- There's no longer a dimention where one side gets more cost-efficient upgrades, but capped to one, and the other side has worse cost efficient but a higher cap

Thus, if slot weapons are ever to be nerfed, it would be better if the individual slot items get their stats lowered, but also become cheaper (but not lower than 45-50, otherwise, again, it becomes trivial).

Has there been testing with slot weapons stats being lower but cost as well like you described?

Has there been testing with slot weapons stats being lower but cost as well like you described?

Not really. We could have tried that one if DBP hadn't been announced, so..

...

Why not to make obests awaible at HQ when T1\T2 is builded and limiting them to 1 or 2 squads with LMG upgrade locked behind T3. If T3 is built limitation removed aswell.

Their vet should be tonned down, if this is done. But I think it would make great synergy with volks and would help quite a while in mid game, since OKW would have powerfull long range squad, which cant be massed and still would lose 1v1 to upgraded inf, forcing players to support them early on and because of limited number chose where they want them to be.

Right now OKW feels like soviets in some cases, where you need to pick doctrine with a call-in inf for your mid game.

Another problem I have with volks in the current patch is the dumb fucking building metas. I dont understand why volks in buildings are fucking super heroes and it takes 3x rifles in cover to out shoot them in the building and take so long by the time that happens another volk jumps, yet they are almost no cost get incendiary nades to deny you buildings and cover, yet when a rifle is in a house he can be out shot by 1 volk squad in cover.

Everyone who plays okw knows this its why they do it and abuse it all the time on maps with pivotal building locations or maps like ettlebrook. Because you are forced to fight them as they are blocking attack approaches.

Meanwhile other than maybe soviets every other damn faction has to pay out the ass to get viable building counters especially usf. Usf can do what get the shity mortar that can pound the building all day why volks still sit in it and laugh or pay out the ass to get grenades they dont work as they jump in and out.

UKF has what UC with expensive wasp upgrade and is also super fragile and dosent even do the same dmg as ost flame track.

The funniest part is sturms alone are good building clear by themselves. Also why can sturms shoot through fucking walls if one of your units is in a building?

Volksgrenadiers MP-40 Upgrade
We find the risk vs reward of the MP-40 upgrade, although appealing, not worth the trade off in its current state. Thus, to improve the cost vs benefit, we've applied the following bonus:

Now also confers a 0.93 received accuracy bonus

Won't help. Has nothing to do with the unit. MP40s are completely useless, they deal no damage at any range other than melee, and in actual games, getting into melee range is impossible against anyone with half a brain, smoke or no.

Buff MP40 damage, for crying out loud, and do it across the board, so that Ostheer Assault Grenadiers actually see some use for once.

I don't know of the stats on the Volksgrenadier MP 40, but if it's the same as the Ostheer Assault Grenadiers, then it is the weakest of all the SMG assaulters. If people find them underwhelming, you could try boosting the MP 40's offensive capabilities. If Assault Grenadiers gain a boost as well, you could compensate by moving from to CP1.

Won't help. Has nothing to do with the unit. MP40s are completely useless, they deal no damage at any range other than melee, and in actual games, getting into melee range is impossible against anyone with half a brain, smoke or no.

Buff MP40 damage, for crying out loud, and do it across the board, so that Ostheer Assault Grenadiers actually see some use for once.

Assault Grenadiers fill a very niche role, and i think their sprint/Assault grenades ability make them a great choice for cqc and flanks (Good to overwhelm weapon crews for example). Imo a dmg buff could be a risky move and could quickly render them overpowered.

I think the mp40's package is defined by the smoke/nade ability (That was the intention, right?). Since the mp40's work well with these elements i dont think the package is bad.

However, adding sprint into the package and maybe removing an ability/increasing package cost could make the mp40's themselves more desireable and not represent a "downside". Otherwise the usability of the package is pretty limited.

HERE IT IS, EXACTLY what I feared: Volks lose thier slots, as pick up weapon + stg is op.
Happy to see that Mr. Smith saw the issues with volks slot + stg that i foresee and talked about some days ago.

I just wished the balance team considered giving them the slot and their proper veterancy, slighly reducing the price and removing the TRUE OFFENDER, stg....

shit u right maybe we should buff panzer2, mg42, ost mortar, leig because they are weak. And this is sick that Usf is stronk on evry stage of game. Mr smith pls nerf barblob and add mg34 to volks

Grenadiers suck balls vs every other mainline infantry unit, including cons now.

Incidentally 3 mp40s and 2 stgs actually works well on volks as an assault unit package.

Gives them the damage output they need, but eliminates their ability to operate effectively at range.

But alas the mp40s are only for a feuerstorm upgrade, and the stgs are likely here to stay as-is. That feuerstorm upgrade probably solidifies the current stock stg upgrade on volks.

hurr durr

This is about volks
Have you read OP ? This thread is for those that actually play okw and tested DBP.