Remove USF Mortar and replace with RE Rifle Grenade

With all these changes for USF going around thought I'd add one that's been floating around in my head for a bit. Rear Echelon are getting changes that while helpful especially the volley fire ability which is finally useful and the grenade changes, they still lack a bit of utility that make them a useful addition outside of usual engineer duties or being bazooka carries.

To improve not only their utility but to add another option that would not only allow to encourage further diversifying of USF but to provide a unique, more mobile option of fire support early game. Generally the current USF build is simply Rifles into mortar then teching. What I'd suggest is giving the Rear Echelon a upgrade to use their grenade launcher, the same one used in the fighting position as a aim able ability

The balancing factor of such a thing would be it take up a weapon slot, its travel time, audio cue, and most importantly the fact of having a timer on impact. It'd purely be a fire support weapon that functions as a counter to garrisons in combination with supporting Rifles and being used as a soft counter to units in cover.

Suggested costs and stats

• 45 munitions available T0
  
• Takes up a weapon slot and replaces a RE carbine and is unable to use minesweeper or flame thrower
  
• Same range as the Grenadier Rifle Grenade
  
• (If aimable) Cool down: 15 seconds, veterancy reduces cool down once by five seconds
  

This would provide Rear Echelon a unique place compared to Rifles in a combat role as the ability to provide fire support for them and helping to counter garrisons. It also provides a unique take for a engineer unit to clear garrisons compared to a flamer and the flamer is still stronger albeit shorter range, doctrinal upgrade.

On garrison heavy maps it encourage players to go duel Rifles and dual RE's to support each other in taking down said garrisons. If it's a more open map they'll still provide mobile firepower for Rifles. After all Rifles are stronger in direct combat with superior stats and veterancy so it makes sense to go for Rifles instead of putting BARs on RE's.


Why remove USF mortar?

Hopefully with this change it would make up for removing the USF mortar as the whole reason the mortar was added was a) counter garrisons without spending munitions every time and at range b) to help diversify USF build early game. However the mortar didn't really achieve the latter. Players still go three Rifles and a mortar due to REs not possessing utility nor combat power. And I do want to state this is all for trying to diversify USF as the DBP is trying to accomplish.

The mortar didn't really diversify USF as simply more just another unit that is more of no brainer to tack onto USF. It isn't use as a smoke dispenser due it used more of a garrison and HMG counter. With REs and Officers receiving smoke grenades the USF mortar is in a odd place. It isn't bad, quite the contrary but it feels out of place. USF already have smoke grenades, Sherman's, scotts, and more smoke available.

The RE changes are meant to provide a new way to counter garrisons without using munitions every time, making RE more attractive with a unique non doctrinal upgrade, and to remove the USF mortar.

This gives me DOW IG grenade launcher spam flashbacks.

OT exactly how may different ways does USF need to deal with garrisons until they stop getting more free options.

This gives me DOW IG grenade launcher spam flashbacks.

OT exactly how may different ways does USF need to deal with garrisons until they stop getting more free options.

Free exactly in what way? USF have mortar, grenades on most of their infantry, flamers (doctrinally), and pack howitzer (even though it is still a poor unit). Quite similar to other factions.

Regardless, the main point is fill a role for RE that isn't just bazooka carries or usual engineer duties. People been apparently wanting other units to use aside from Rifles and this way RE's have a role that Rifles don't excel at in a different and non doctrinal way via clearing buildings and have a light fire support role.

How is that call free stuff if you must pay it for unlocking and spending munitions to use it ?!!?

Give more utilities for promote combines arms is welcome change.

Nothing relevant.

Please do not address insaneHoshi, check his playercard and you'll see what is driving his responses to all allied changes.

David I think that this change could be great, eliminates the need for fighting positions on certain areas but it's also easy to be abused if it was a passive ability that functions just like the FP RNade.


If it was to be implemented it would have to be something like the Brit upgrade from vCoH.

Great idea though, very outside the box.

I've had the same suggestion for a while, confused the hell out of me when they gave the US a T0 mortar instead. The good part about this suggestion is that the Mod Team have already done it and refined it in their Revamp Mod, so they've already got the numbers down for it.

I'd trade the Suppression Fire for a Grenadier-like rifle grenade ability at Vet 1 or 2.

RETs with a grenade rifle upgrade that auto fire rifle grenades feel OP tbh.

I'd trade the Suppression Fire for a Grenadier-like rifle grenade ability at Vet 1 or 2.

Auto-attack rifle grenades feel OP tbh, even on RE.

No disrespect meant, but then you might as well not implement it, as it's just be the same thing as the mk2 rifles can throw without sacrificing a weapon slot and just make more rifles/less REs. Having an upgradeable fighting position-style riflenade either on autofire with a timer or ability with a timer would help usf so much against garrisons, as their only option is basically nades, which will drain muni fast and won't even force a unit out, especially if it's not a team weapon and it can just jump out to dodge the nade and jump back in.

If smoke gets moved to REs this could be a good way to implement that as well. Whether or not the smoke should require the nades upgrade I don't know.

And again, keep in mind the riflenades would have a timer just like the fighting position ones.

I would be down for that. Sounds fun and ballanced - since you lose other upgrades.

No disrespect meant, but then you might as well not implement it, as it's just be the same thing as the mk2 rifles can throw without sacrificing a weapon slot and just make more rifles/less REs.

None taken.

But don't grenadiers also get rifle grenades without sacrificing a weapon slot? Yet RETs have little combat utility versus infantry unless you make 6-7 of them.

Having an upgradeable fighting position-style riflenade either on autofire with a timer or ability with a timer would help usf so much against garrisons, as their only option is basically nades, which will drain muni fast and won't even force a unit out, especially if it's not a team weapon and it can just jump out to dodge the nade and jump back in.

I think my post wasn't written well, but I meant to say that having a rifle grenade upgrade like the UK from VCoH would be OP. They should obviously keep the auto attack in fighting positions, but need veterancy to use the rifle grenade outside of the fighiting position.

And again, keep in mind the riflenades would have a timer just like the fighting position ones.

If they have a timer they'd be too easy to dodge, so that would need to be compensated with cheaper activation. But if they're too cheap, they can be spammed to easy if someone just builds RETs.

I would much rather REs have a munitions based equivalent to Grenadier rifle nade than to have a passive slot item weapon launching grenades forever.

Though in my opinion, I prefer REs in a standard engineer role: minelaying/sweeping/repairs (especially as the number of USF vehicles without crews grows). I feel as though Assault Engineers and Rifle Company's (now) RE flamethrowers needs sorting out in some fashion.

If REs got a slot item rifle grenade and smoke, I'd almost rather see them traded for Assault engineers.

Am I the only one who thinks this would be horribly unbalanced?

Volley grenades from any garrison or cover, even over shotblockers....

Fighting positions are already incredibly strong when put up. To take that ability anywhere for a small muni cost is nuts imo....

Free exactly in what way? USF have mortar, grenades on most of their infantry, flamers (doctrinally), and pack howitzer (even though it is still a poor unit). Quite similar to other factions.

Regardless, the main point is fill a role for RE that isn't just bazooka carries or usual engineer duties. People been apparently wanting other units to use aside from Rifles and this way RE's have a role that Rifles don't excel at in a different and non doctrinal way via clearing buildings and have a light fire support role.

Free in the sense that it's just another addition to the roster with no tradeoff, similar to that of the USF mortar. Like when stgs and flame nades were given to folks, those replaced schreks and normal nades and Penals PTRS replaced flamers.

I guess the point is that garrisons should be a little hard to clear and giving a faction more and more options (on top of an overall building nerf with exit times) will make garrisons even more pointless.

Please do not address insaneHoshi, check his playercard and you'll see what is driving his responses to all allied .

I'll admit I'm biased and full of it if you do the same since you only play allies and do the same.

And it's not like I'm saying hugely biased bullshit when I say "I have concerns about this"

snip

The whole point I'm making this suggestion is due to some feeling USF needs to have more versified build aside from Rifles which I disagree with but if that's where USF is heading might as well encourage some changes to RE to help diversify USF in a way that makes RE more attractive.

And there is a trade with giving RE's a grenade launcher via that they can't use minesweepers or flamer and it takes a weapon slot. RE's currently aren't attractive in a combat role outside of flamers and bazooka's as while you can put BARs on them that's 120 munition on a unit that is less combat effective than Rifles which only cost 40 more MP to purchase and 3 more MP to reinforce (28).

The suggestion I've made is something Rifles can't do which is garrison clearing without using munitions every time and in a more unique way. I'd use RE's much more if they had this type of grenade launcher as Rifles wouldn't have access to it.

snip

Yes RE's don't have much combat power but you can still put one BAR on them if you feel the need to but the grenade launcher is meant to counter garrisons and unit in cover in a way Rifles can't do without spending munitions and having to get closer. They won't have much combat power but this is the trade off to have more utility.

I'd suggest this be a aim able ability as if they were auto fire they could target units you don't want to attack and it would require some type of micro as well. The timer is meant to make is easy to dodge for the enemy expect for units in garrisons thanks to the changes to unload and load. HMGs or Rakets would still take a hit from it before they could get out due to their set up time. The timer is meant to balance it to only be a one time purchase but remain effective against garrisons and cover units if they aren't paying attention.

If someone does spam RE's they would lack direct combat power even with one BAR as they give up a weapon slot for the grenade launcher.

snipe

Well the whole point, as I stated in another post, is to make USF build more versified and in a non doctrinal way. If the grenade launcher costs munitions each time to use then it wouldn't be worth it as you might as well use the grenade from Rifles or the USF mortar. The point is to make them a mobile light fire support for your Rifles that doesn't munitions each time and fill a role that Rifles couldn't do already.

None taken.

But don't grenadiers also get rifle grenades without sacrificing a weapon slot? Yet RETs have little combat utility versus infantry unless you make 6-7 of them.



I think my post wasn't written well, but I meant to say that having a rifle grenade upgrade like the UK from VCoH would be OP. They should obviously keep the auto attack in fighting positions, but need veterancy to use the rifle grenade outside of the fighiting position.



If they have a timer they'd be too easy to dodge, so that would need to be compensated with cheaper activation. But if they're too cheap, they can be spammed to easy if someone just builds RETs.

I still think the best solution is having free grenades with a timer that are either on autofire or an activated ability. that take up a weapon slot. They'd be primarily for garrison clearing (especially/mostly mgs) and soft countering cover by forcing movement, and the fact that they have a somewhat lengthy timer, take up a weapon slot, and lock out flamers and minesweepers would keep it balanced IMO, especially considering their carbines are pretty bad (as in can't beat anything 1 on 1 with all four, let alone 3).

So basically, to reiterate, it wouldn't be as bad as Coh1 because there's only one, it has a decently long timer and distinctive audio cue (if it doesn't bug out like riflenades sorta do), the rest of the squad is pretty combat ineffective (unlike sections from Coh1), and it locks out other useful upgrades and a weapon slot. Having it as an activated ability would also make it much harder to blob REs in the way Coh1 sections were.

Free in the sense that it's just another addition to the roster with no tradeoff, similar to that of the USF mortar. Like when stgs and flame nades were given to folks, those replaced schreks and normal nades and Penals PTRS replaced flamers.

I guess the point is that garrisons should be a little hard to clear and giving a faction more and more options (on top of an overall building nerf with exit times) will make garrisons even more pointless.

Yeah well that's because all the other factions don't have nearly as many stupid caveats in their design as usf.

I don't think anybody (who any faction) would agree that garrisons are at all useless. They often shape engagements and determine who wins.

What if the grenades didn't damage infantry, but only stunned?

Stun them so Rifles can kill with real grenades.

I still think the best solution is having free grenades with a timer that are either on autofire or an activated ability. that take up a weapon slot. They'd be primarily for garrison clearing (especially/mostly mgs) and soft countering cover by forcing movement, and the fact that they have a somewhat lengthy timer, take up a weapon slot, and lock out flamers and minesweepers would keep it balanced IMO, especially considering their carbines are pretty bad (as in can't beat anything 1 on 1 with all four, let alone 3).

But Rifle Company flamethrowers and Assault Engineers already fulfill anti-garrison purposes.

Not to mention that 2 or more RETs with this auto fire grenade could deny garrison alternately firing rifle grenades and basically make riflemen grenades redundant.

So basically, to reiterate, it wouldn't be as bad as Coh1 because there's only one, it has a decently long timer and distinctive audio cue (if it doesn't bug out like riflenades sorta do), the rest of the squad is pretty combat ineffective (unlike sections from Coh1), and it locks out other useful upgrades and a weapon slot. Having it as an activated ability would also make it much harder to blob REs in the way Coh1 sections were.

Why would anyone pick the rifle grenade that's easy to dodge when they could pick the flamethrower that's not dodgeable. Not to mention that if the rifle grenades are too easy to dodge the RET squad isn't doing any damage and is back to combat ineffectiveness. Normal riflemen grenades are already easy to dodge.

And there is a trade with giving RE's a grenade launcher via that they can't use minesweepers or flamer and it takes a weapon slot. RE's currently aren't attractive in a combat role outside of flamers and bazooka's as while you can put BARs on them that's 120 munition on a unit that is less combat effective than Rifles which only cost 40 more MP to purchase and 3 more MP to reinforce (28).

I think RETs are weak enough that they don't need that trade.

The suggestion I've made is something Rifles can't do which is garrison clearing without using munitions every time and in a more unique way. I'd use RE's much more if they had this type of grenade launcher as Rifles wouldn't have access to it.

Introducing an anti-garrison ability that's not flamethrowers or mortars could upset the balance by a large margin.

Yes RE's don't have much combat power but you can still put one BAR on them if you feel the need to but the grenade launcher is meant to counter garrisons and unit in cover in a way Rifles can't do without spending munitions and having to get closer. They won't have much combat power but this is the trade off to have more utility.

Except the USF isn't lacking in anti-garrison abilities (some would argue they have too many). I think the main issue at hand is that the RETs are completely lacking in direct combat effectiveness, and giving them a Grenadier rifle grenade ability would give them just enough offensive ability to not be useless.

Well the whole point, as I stated in another post, is to make USF build more versified and in a non doctrinal way. If the grenade launcher costs munitions each time to use then it wouldn't be worth it as you might as well use the grenade from Rifles or the USF mortar. The point is to make them a mobile light fire support for your Rifles that doesn't munitions each time and fill a role that Rifles couldn't do already.

It would probably be easier to make USF more diversified if the starting unit was a rifle squad and each tier didn't automatically come with an infantry squad but had reduced cost.

Mortars already fulfill mobile light fire support. It's generally better to use a dedicated unit like the mortar than try to turn another unit into a watered down version of it.

It would probably be easier to make USF more diversified if the starting unit was a rifle squad and each tier didn't automatically come with an infantry squad but had reduced cost.

Mortars already fulfill mobile light fire support. It's generally better to use a dedicated unit like the mortar than try to turn another unit into a watered down version of it.

I actually never understood why relic if they wanted the usf to be built around a few core units, why didn't they make the usf, use only a few core units that you upgrade to what you need from them. For example the m3 half track was used for like 5 or six different things including lugging around an at gun, having both a mortar and artillery piece. They could have made Usf tier 2 and 4 just the m3 and a sherman and give them exclusive upgrades you had to purchase to turn them into specialized units.

Two things. One: Rifle nades cannot be automatic (It's just hell for everyone if people keep having to dodge free grenades every 4 seconds.) This should be a long-reaching ability with a bit of a minimum range to it. (Just like the Grenadier ability except with a one-second countdown and the unique rifle grenade sound) If Rear Ech is going to serve a non-doctrine Anti Garrison Role then the player should cough up some munitions. If this upgrade package is available at Tier 0 and not after weapons rack or the nades research then there should be a minor unitions cost (Like 10 or 15) after the initial 45.

Two: Make the upgrade take up two slots. Don't half-ass the purpose of purchasing the upgrade by allowing the squad to pick up a Zook or even a Bar. Make the player choose to fully dedicate the squad in Anti-cover/Garrison duty in the early game. It's all or bust! I feel as the second point will be much better implemented if this package also reduced the cooldown and/or launching speed of the Smoke grenade.