DBP Commander Revamp brainstorming

As you all know, the following commanders are going to be revamped:

* (USF) Recon Support Company
* (USF) Mechanized Company
* (SOVIET) Tank Hunter Tactics
* (SOVIET) Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics
* (BRITISH) Royal Engineer Regiment
* (BRITISH) Commando Regiment
* (OKW) Feuersturm Doctrine
* (OKW) Luftwaffe Ground Forces Doctrine
* (WEHRMACHT) Jaeger Light Infantry
* (WEHRMACHT) Osttruppen Doctrine

Some of the commanders, luckily only require minor tweaks, which will allow the commander to perform their intended role (e.g., Guard Rifle Combined Arms).

However, some commanders are filled with pointless abilities which either don't fit the doctrine or don't help the commander to scale in anyway. We have some ideas of our own. However, before we commit to implementing them, we would also like to hear some of your ideas.

What abilities/units would you think it would be fun for those doctrines to have, that they are currently missing?

Only question is - if only old abilities would be used in re-wamp or its possible to see some new ones

Only question is - if only old abilities would be used in re-wamp or its possible to see some new ones

Assume it is possible to change abilities at will.

could we split mortar cover from air supremacy ?

mortar cover are great if wasn't outshadow by air supremacy

could we split mortar cover from air supremacy ?

mortar cover are great if wasn't outshadow by air supremacy

If you ask me it's the other way around. I would say that mortar cover is an extremely underrated ability.

Even if you split them, though, that leaves you with one slot open; in that case what would the Commando Doctrine need that fits the theme?

Assume it is possible to change abilities at will.

Well, thing is, if ppl at Relic would like to make some new abilities then we might even get few new ones, problem is that its kinda hard to make some of listed commanders good without bringing new stuff to them.

Specifically the Ost and Sov commanders have a bigger overlap in terms of capabilities. And there are a lot of underused commanders there as well.

Is it possible to buff certain abilities so that not only those commanders are buffed but the - potentially underused - commanders that share the same ability? In that case it would be possible to kill maybe like 1.5 birds with one stone, if you know what I mean...

To clarify: Do changes to commander abilities of the chosen group carry over to other commanders with the same abilities or would the change be limited to the commanders listed?

Even if you split them, though, that leaves you with one slot open; in that case what would the Commando Doctrine need that fits the theme?

How about something like triangulation equipment in coh1? Intelligence is extremely important for commando so I think a camouflage equipment that can reveal unit on mini-map within an area is welcome.

Here is one I have thought of for (SOVIET) Tank Hunter Tactics.
Change the salvage kits from an upgrade to an ability like OKW's salvage ability.

The reason why I don't like the current way is that its a rather expensive upgrade and it denies other upgrades such as the flamethrower and mine sweeper.

Another suggestion would be the PTRS for cons. Lower the CPs required from 3 to 2. Because guards comes at 2 CPs with PTRS rifles.

Last suggestion is to make the at-nade ability from the commander homing (possible make them always penetrate).
Currently the nades can be very powerful if they hit and penetrate.
However for them to hit their intended target the target has to either stand still or move towards the conscripts.

The argument against making them homing would be the small at mines that comes with the commander, as they stun any vehicles. Another argument could be that it would make them too powerful.

Arguments for making them homing would be like I mentioned, only when the target is standing still or moving towards the conscripts will it hit.
The nades are very likely to miss even if the vehicle is reversing away from the conscripts with a broken engine.

using UURRAAR to get close/behind tanks will likely result in lost models and the opponent will order the tank to reverse away. One might be able to surprise a tank by flanking it and using URA to get close (and hoping the enemy doesn't pay attention)

But all in all, I think homing at-nades are worth a test

Recon Support Company:
Forward observers/Recon sweep merged into 1 ability, ability also replaced majors sweep with Recon plane.

Forward observers work in during combat.

IR redesign as an ant anti-sniper unit. Now come have 1 scope rifle with range 50, doing little damage (high accuracy low damage) but marking the target hit similar to UKF "vehicle tracking". The unit role is not kill the sniper but to make its life more difficult.

M8 comes with skirts, can lay m20 mines, at vet 1 gain an ability similar to spotting scopes but timed.

Airborne combat group AT removed, CP lowered to 3 Para come with 2 bazooka 2 lmgs.

Commander now has access to P47 strafing run (T.S. Comp.)

Mechanized Company:
Reduce far DPS WC51 infantry loaded no longer can fire reduce fuel cost to 5.

Unit now serves as a counter to Kubel, and as transport suitable to drop infantry at the flanks.

M3 HT Assault Group, the m3 and assault engineer can now be built in HQ separately.

Recon plane replaced by m21 mortar HT

If you ask me it's the other way around. I would say that mortar cover is an extremely underrated ability.

Even if you split them, though, that leaves you with one slot open; in that case what would the Commando Doctrine need that fits the theme?

that quite hard though the commander already fulfill with utillity ability. but what if replace mortar cover with standfast from Royal Engineer Regiment and instead Commando Regiment replace standfast with Passive ability like "Stay frosty" (Conscript hit the dirt) that allow both Commando and Infantry section to use hit the dirt but this time with hold fire and provide with ambush bonus once engage

Or call in valentine with gilder which need to perform better somehow

Tank hunter Tactics:
AT grenade assault and PMD-6M merged to 1 ability.
AT grenades can be target on ground and are sticky.
PMD-6M work now stun target when 2 are hit and can do engine damage when 4 are hit (mechanism similar to old USF mines.

PTRS (applies to all version) redesigned weapon now has low accuracy and does hit infantry. Conscripts and (Guards) have a timed ability where the weapon now perform AI weapon and not an AT weapon.

Salvage kit cost now to 50 also gives a slight repair speed boost.

Doctrine now has access to either "armored vehicle detection" or "mark target".

"Armored vehicle detection" redesigned to be always on at ranges 35 and activated for an mu cost individually increasing range to 70.


"Mark target" now lowers armor of target instead of increasing damage.

Guard Rifle Combined Arm Tactics:

Guards price increased to 350, Guards can now be built in T1 for 320. (PTRS changed as described in TH tactics), trip wire flare replaced by button as vet 1 ability. The ability know does not require unit to be stationary and scales with with veterancy gaining duration and lowering cost.

"Hit the dirty" now offer a 10% damage reduction (maybe 10% accuracy) but it becomes timed (10 secs duration?).

"conscripts assault package upgrade" PPsh either gives 6 PPsh or 3 SVT.

"Ourah" now becomes a vet 1 and/or increase Target size. The ability now scales with veterancy gradually removing Target size penalties. Alternatively "hit the dirty" becomes vet 1 ability for conscripts and "ourah" doctrinal.

Ml20 replaced by either KV-1 or KV-2 or M-42 AT.

KV-1 now requires T4, vet 1 ability now replaced by a time 10% damage reduction. Vet bonus redesign to better fit unit.

KV-2 vet 1 ability become siege mode. Minimum range removed or reduced, sight penalty removed, siege mod fire becomes explosive from ballistic. vet bonuses redesign to better fit unit.

M-42 AT now redesign as a weapon to ideal against fast moving target. Angle of fire increased, rotation speed increased, response times (times before fire) reduced. Accuracy increased. Vet 1 ability replaced by shot that reduces enemy rotation speed.

(BRITISH) Royal Engineer Regiment
"Stand fast" is a emplacement ability now global. "Stand fast" now available to emplacement "brace" now doctrinal.

"Command vehicle"
Penalties to vehicle only affects damage output.
Recon plane removed or CD increased and now comes at a cost.

Aura bonus to now providing cover status for UKF infantry, reload x105% to vehicles/emplacement scaling by 3+3+4 (total 115)for each vet level of vehicle, vehicle now share XP with infantry.

Vehicles now has a timed ability increasing the reload bonus by x110%.

AVRE now also affected by shot blockers. AOE increased, Kill radius decreased, shot now stuns or suppress infantry in AOE.

"Anti-building flame mortar support" CP lowered to 4 cost reduced to 80 radius reduce to affect 3 building 1 next to other. Ability now work like zeroing artillery with reduced initial impact and gradually ramping up.

Vehicle crew repairs now vehicle ability instead of global.

USF

Mechanized Commander
- WC51 a bit more health or front armor or reduce its price (200mp) (10fu) and pop (7). And improve its pathing, 3/2 times I have it destroyed is because of its stupid pathing.
- Withdraw and refit is fine
- Replace the M3 half-track with the M5 and remove the AE from the load.
- Reco swipe is fine
- 155mm arty barrage is fine

Reco Commander
- Forward Observer to be changed to the Panzerfusiller bonus vision
- Ir pathfinder, reduce their pop cost to 5.
- M8 Greyhoud to a Stuart like armor wise, but with less AT power and more AI.
- Reco swipe is fine
- Airdrop combat group, remove the Atgun and reduce its price (500mp) and CP requirement (6CP).

Is it also possible to post suggestions for balance changes of certain doc abilites here? If so, then...
Show Spoiler


if not, just ignore this post

To clarify: Do changes to commander abilities of the chosen group carry over to other commanders with the same abilities or would the change be limited to the commanders listed?

Same commander abilities affect other commanders too. Let's say that Guards Combined Arms commander was "strategically" chosen for that purpose.

How about something like triangulation equipment in coh1? Intelligence is extremely important for commando so I think a camouflage equipment that can reveal unit on mini-map within an area is welcome.

Smaller abilities we could collapse to existing ones. E.g., commando vet1 could allow them to plant such beacons. What I'm asking for is if there is something fun that could be game-changing for a doctrine.

Here is one I have thought of for (SOVIET) Tank Hunter Tactics.
Change the salvage kits from an upgrade to an ability like OKW's salvage ability.

The reason why I don't like the current way is that its a rather expensive upgrade and it denies other upgrades such as the flamethrower and mine sweeper.

Another suggestion would be the PTRS for cons. Lower the CPs required from 3 to 2. Because guards comes at 2 CPs with PTRS rifles.

Last suggestion is to make the at-nade ability from the commander homing (possible make them always penetrate).
Currently the nades can be very powerful if they hit and penetrate.
However for them to hit their intended target the target has to either stand still or move towards the conscripts.

The argument against making them homing would be the small at mines that comes with the commander, as they stun any vehicles. Another argument could be that it would make them too powerful.

Arguments for making them homing would be like I mentioned, only when the target is standing still or moving towards the conscripts will it hit.
The nades are very likely to miss even if the vehicle is reversing away from the conscripts with a broken engine.

using UURRAAR to get close/behind tanks will likely result in lost models and the opponent will order the tank to reverse away. One might be able to surprise a tank by flanking it and using URA to get close (and hoping the enemy doesn't pay attention)

But all in all, I think homing at-nades are worth a test

In light of Conscript buffs, we probably want to avoid making this commander into a "Spam Conscripts and kill everything". Ideally, there should be a mix of units and abilities involved to reach that conclusion.

Smaller existing abilities, we know how to rebalance. What we're asking for specifically are for abilities we should add, or abilities we should completely redo (e.g., Smoke Raid)

that quite hard though the commander already fulfill with utillity ability. but what if replace mortar cover with standfast from Royal Engineer Regiment and instead Commando Regiment replace standfast with Passive ability like "Stay frosty" (Conscript hit the dirt) that allow both Commando and Infantry section to use hit the dirt but this time with hold fire and provide with ambush bonus once engage

Or call in valentine with gilder which need to perform better somehow

Now that could be interesting. Commando Doctrine should definitely fulfill the sneakiness aspect of Brits. Smoke raid kind of does similar things, though.

USF

Mechanized Commander
- WC51 a bit more health or front armor or reduce its price (200mp) (10fu) and pop (7). And improve its pathing, 3/2 times I have it destroyed is because of its stupid pathing.
- Withdraw and refit is fine
- Replace the M3 half-track with the M5 and remove the AE from the load.
- Reco swipe is fine
- 155mm arty barrage is fine

The doctrine completely sucks in the late-game. Why would you ever pick this doctrine over the Calliope doctrine? I don't think WC51 is enough to carry the doctrine.

(OKW) Feuersturm Doctrine
Hezter
Rear armor increased to (120-140) unit has to move in close to fire and has no turret thus it is difficult not to expose rear armor.

Unit now has access to self-defense smoke.

Damage increased, DOT removed. Unit now has access to a targeted ability that creates AOE in a specific area. Tactical usage of the unit goes in fires ability forcing enemy units to move, gets out.

Unit XP value reduce to Luch levels. CP reduced to 6-7.

Mobility increased so that it can run from enemy vehicles.

"Rocket barrage" replaced by "incendiary rocket barrage" CP move to 6-7 (similar to Luftwaffe). Does extra DOT damage to emplacement up to 0 HP but can not kill them.

Recoup losses now offer a 10-20% received accuracy bonus.

"Thorough salvage" replaced by "incendiary munition". Leig/Stuka (stuka vet incendiary barrage reduces cost)get incendiary barrage, all infantry get a incendiary grenade(Vg grenade replaced normal grenade), PZ4, Panther and KT get WP round.

Alternative throughout salvage take the same time a normal selvage.

The doctrine completely sucks in the late-game. Why would you ever pick this doctrine over the Calliope doctrine? I don't think WC51 is enough to carry the doctrine.

2/3 of USF doctrines suck in the late game and I can't really imagine adding Priest, pershing or Calliope in any doctrine to give them a late game option.