December Balance Preview

That's probably because LMG34 already has beastly stats, even on Vet0 obersoldaten.

I think it should be fixed nontheless with some modifier, especially if volks will retain an additional weapon slot.

I think it should be fixed nontheless with some modifier, especially if volks will retain an additional weapon slot.

I don't see how this is a problem with Volks. They cost 25 to reinforce, and don't get amazing veterancy bonuses anymore. You also don't routinely see Volks with slots free roaming around, due to the prevalence of the STG upgrade.

Volks new formation (which is a copy-paste of Conscript one) is now also more compact when fully-reinforced to reflect their reinforcement cost.

Panther's veterancy is what makes it a real problem in team games. It gets Blitz, armor/HP and reload speed.

It is easy to rank it up due to the fact that chasing is not an option in 4vs4 so the monstrous armor can usually back out despite driving into tank-destroyers and AT weapons. The panther might not kill your tanks, but it will always penetrate where all but tank destroyers are going to bounce a lot.

Panther (in team games) is a beast because:
• High Mobility
• Heavy Tank stats
• Tank Destroyer (50 range)
• Ok anti-infantry
• Spammable
• Hard to vet-up against it

Panther renders all ally generalist tanks (T34 85, E8 and even Comet) obsolete because only AT weapons/tank destroyers can reliably penetrate Panther's front armor.

The solution could be making the popcap 22/24 or giving it veterancy bonuses like Comet's (Vet 1 Blitz, Vet 2 Targeting bonuses, Vet 3 additional mobility).

Pamthers are just extremely different to kill unless over extended. When it comes to team games most maps are too small(in larger team games) to do an effective flank without running into heavy tanks, at guns, AT infantry, and snares then you're dead in the water. This means that pretty much the only counter is TD unless you get lucky with mines or some commander abilities. I think heavy tanks (Panthers and tigers) should behave like slower fortresses. Nothing's more frustrating than trying to get that rear armour behind these heavy tanks with the allied medium and be unable to, do to them reversing at nearly the same speed your tanks driving forward at. Furthermore they have 2 emergency buttons. Smoke tactician which unless you get a lucky attack ground shot though means you need to move behind that smoke closer to the enemy lines. Then there's blitzkrieg, so if your Sherman's are all rushing a heavy tank trying to get behind it just blitzkrieg in reverse and laugh as they can't penetrate your frontal armour and can't get behind you.

Point being heavy tanks should have blitzkrieg removed and perhaps something similar given to allied medium tanks to allow them to reach that rear armour. Maybe simply removing it and giving Panthers a small speed reduction would be enough.

Map without flanking options -> just go for ATGs and support them with MGs. Panther's ain't exactly great against those.

Map without flanking options -> just go for ATGs and support them with MGs. Panther's ain't exactly great against those.

True but they'll just eat 4 at gun hits, gain some vet and reverse out of danger. Furthermore more compact spaces typically mean more artillery too hit those slow weapon teams.

Swapping the durability and rate of fire of the panther and stug may prove to be worthwhile, though likely distasteful to the powers that be.

What i mean is ro reduce the health of the panther to 720 like other "advanced mediums" as they're being called. The vet 2 health bonus could be reduced or even removed as well. Give the panther a rate of fire like stugs.

Reduce stug rate of fire to current panther levels, and boost its health and armor to match the p4.

I toyed around with this in a test mod and I felt it functioned rather well. Osheer suddenly had a unit that could buy time and field presence without being a total crutch, and the panther became a frightening tank hunter, but not a damage sponge.

But it's a significant change that would require serious playtesting, which isn't really possible.

Sorry to say, I'm just hoping there is a late winter/spring Patch as well. Never liked the multiple buffs/nerfs to a wide variety of units. Thought we figured out shortly after WFA that large patches don't work. That the community likes multiple small patches.

I hope I'm wrong, but history tells me there is an unforseen broken unit/strategy/bug that won't be discovered till about 24 hours after Patch release.

I'm not being doubtful, just real. Now I understand I might have entered a particular mods safe space with this post on well. Just not looking forward for another 6 months of cheese.

Sorry to say, I'm just hoping there is a late winter/spring Patch as well. Never liked the multiple buffs/nerfs to a wide variety of units. Thought we figured out shortly after WFA that large patches don't work. That the community likes multiple small patches.

I hope I'm wrong, but history tells me there is an unforseen broken unit/strategy/bug that won't be discovered till about 24 hours after Patch release.

I'm not being doubtful, just real. Now I understand I might have entered a particular mods safe space with this post on well. Just not looking forward for another 6 months of cheese.

Will most likely break 1vs1 and 2vs2, while 3vs3 and 4vs4 will still be trashy unbalanced modes.

The reason is that resources are MULTIPLIED, not DIVIDED per players...which means resource inflation and favour the faction that can have access to the best/expensive tanks, that otherwise would be perfectly balanced.

I laugh at Sturmpanther telling me they are REDESIGNING maps, those maps would be a three lane clusterfuck again and there is nothing they can do to fix it.
3vs3 and 4vs4 shouldn't exist in first place..

Oh SURE, 4vs4 will be (kinda) balanced, now that obers are necessary to compete (easily wipeable by katyusha/LM spam) and panthers sucks even when blobbed, other than just when alone, it would be an evenly balanced attrition war made of cheese and arty spam...the question is how will okw/ost ever compete in 1vs1 ?

The idea that a now non scaling unit cost 25mp to reinforce and something as ridiculously bad as grens cost 30mp, that panther is a barely decent generalist (true only if blobbed like teamgamers like/hate), that panther issues are given by teching cost (only partially untrue), that giving smoke to RE will fix anything at all or make those useful, that just show how far are 1vs1 and teamgames, that a 0.6 seconds improvement in reload of a now not even highly durable panther would make it useful, or that their teamgames oriented point of view made them think panther "is in a good spot" (with great laughs from anyone in the community with a grasp of small game modes) just show why the balance team would never be able to find a fix for ANY mode at all, especially 1vs1.

The whole effort of previous balance patch, making any unit able to stand on its own in 1vs1, more than reasonable, is getting crushed, to balance 4vs4 1 bridge 8 katyusha map that WILL NEVER be balanced anyway (that 9000 near fuel icon may be the reason @Mr.Smith).

Personally speaking, I see a lot more win streaks (especially longer) with 3's/4's allies than axis.

On another note. I used to be the number 1 axis 4v4 team, and I was even in a team (different clan) where we beat strumpanther and his clan.

I can tell you one thing about 4v4. 9/10 games are a waste of time. Playing people who has no idea what they are doing and they are on these forms often.

And when we played a good team. The pure amount of rocket artillery is what's the cancer, followed by the yellow cover which shields vet 3 terminator LMG squads.

The skill and cheese levels are out the roof. Yes the games are more fun, but as for competitive, it was a joke. You can do things in large team games that are unseen in 1s and 2s. Where losing a Panther is more costly. What I'm trying to say is yes, I can see some of these changes breaking 2s in particular just because a few actual competitive teams are left in 3s/4's. The JT/Ele was one of the few reliable units to counter self spotting su85s. Or FFs. The allies medium armor spam is going to be cancerous now. Especially with the JT movement speed Nerf. Who in the world will build that now over jp4s/Panthers. Or even the pak 43.

P.s. if I had a color for every time I hear a team blame the map. I'd be rich.

Swapping the durability and rate of fire of the panther and stug may prove to be worthwhile, though likely distasteful to the powers that be.

What i mean is ro reduce the health of the panther to 720 like other "advanced mediums" as they're being called. The vet 2 health bonus could be reduced or even removed as well. Give the panther a rate of fire like stugs.

Reduce stug rate of fire to current panther levels, and boost its health and armor to match the p4.

I toyed around with this in a test mod and I felt it functioned rather well. Osheer suddenly had a unit that could buy time and field presence without being a total crutch, and the panther became a frightening tank hunter, but not a damage sponge.

But it's a significant change that would require serious playtesting, which isn't really possible.

Wouldn't the Panther then be more powerful in most cases to overrun most tanks and win most DPS races while packing superior health and armour?

Unless you're getting hit by snares or non-160/200 weapons, you're just as durable against the majority of weapons as you are at 800 hp and now you have a tank that puts out a round every 4-5 seconds with 320 armour and one of the fastest speeds. StuG G at that point might as well be a SU-85 or Jagpanzer IV and 560-640 hp is mainly a change vs 200+ damage TD from 3 to 4.

Guys, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just look at Coh 1 Panther. It was perfect. Avarage to slower firing, but dealing tons of damage to tanks.

IMO Just keep the live RoF, but increase damage to 200. More alpha damage, Better against prediums and lights, but pretty much the same against TDs and mediums (4 shots). Equalize moving accuracy to .65 to both OKW/OST version.

This was the Panther recipe in COH1 and it worked flawlessly.

Rework Vet2. Ost one looses the +10% armor but gains +5 range at vet 2 or 3 like Tiger (OST is the only one without a 60 range TD), OKW one képes the 10% armor, looses the range or gains some sort of offensive bonus.

I am also very much in agreement with Stug changes. Increase base armor by 28%, decrease ROF and Pen by 14-14%. Less cheese turbo firing, more useful and survivable late game. Increase damage against garrisons and emplacements to give it a secondary, historical role.

Wouldn't the Panther then be more powerful in most cases to overrun most tanks and win in most DPS races while packing superior health and armour?

This is the point of the change. I should reiterate that I spoke of reducing the health to 720, and potentially reducing or removing the vet2 health bonus. The panther would, indeed, be the best tank hunter, (given that the cost would be unchanged) but it would retain its weakness to anything infantry.

Unless you're getting hit by snares or non-160/200 weapons,

Also known as infantry handheld AT.

you're just as durable against the majority of weapons as you are at 800 hp and now you have a tank that puts out a round every 4-5 seconds with 320 armour and one of the fastest speeds.

Perhaps with vet the panther might achieve 800 health in this scenario. That's a big part of this idea: reducing the capacity for the panther to absorb damage. The panther currently only achieves this at vet 2 when it starts sporting 960 health.

StuG G at that point might as well be a SU-85 or Jagpanzer IV and 560-640 hp is mainly a change vs 200+ damage TD from 3 to 4.

StuG G is in ostheer t3. Not OKW flak truck or in Soviet t4. It's a unit that has been hardcore crutched on as one of the only cost efficient anti tank measures available to ostheer.

Neither the su85 or the jp4 are meant to be damage sponges, which is what I am suggesting here. And as far as I'm concerned the jp4 and the su85 is what the stug has been made into for a long time.

The idea is to migrate that sense of critical mass of armored health (with vet) onto stugs, which are much less capable of roving around 4v4 maps wiping everything with wheels or tracks.

But like I said, this is a change that affects the core backbone of ostheer at this point, so it would have to be playtest ed rather extensively. We're pretty late in the game, for both DBP and COH2 alike, though. A lot of reinvention is already taking place.

This is the point of the change. I should reiterate that I spoke of reducing the health to 720, and potentially reducing or removing the vet2 health bonus. The panther would, indeed, be the best tank hunter, (given that the cost would be unchanged) but it would retain its weakness to anything infantry.


Also known as infantry handheld AT.



Perhaps with vet the panther might achieve 800 health in this scenario. That's a big part of this idea: reducing the capacity for the panther to absorb damage. The panther currently only achieves this at vet 2 when it starts sporting 960 health.



StuG G is in ostheer t3. Not OKW flak truck or in Soviet t4. It's a unit that has been hardcore crutched on as one of the only cost efficient anti tank measures available to ostheer.

Neither the su85 or the jp4 are meant to be damage sponges, which is what I am suggesting here. And as far as I'm concerned the jp4 and the su85 is what the stug has been made into for a long time.

The idea is to migrate that sense of critical mass of armored health (with vet) onto stugs, which are much less capable of roving around 4v4 maps wiping everything with wheels or tracks.

But like I said, this is a change that affects the core backbone of ostheer at this point, so it would have to be playtest ed rather extensively. We're pretty late in the game, for both DBP and COH2 alike, though. A lot of reinvention is already taking place.

It's actually a good idea, probably the best, as it gives a role/identity to the panther/jadg/stug

Guys, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just look at Coh 1 Panther. It was perfect. Avarage to slower firing, but dealing tons of damage to tanks.

IMO Just keep the live RoF, but increase damage to 200. More alpha damage, Better against prediums and lights, but pretty much the same against TDs and mediums (4 shots). Equalize moving accuracy to .65 to both OKW/OST version.

Wouldn't this make the Panther a heavily armoured, much faster yet shorter ranged version of the Firefly that can also defend itself with an MG42? Hmmmmm... While I think you are on the right track by keeping it's AT role front and center of any discussed changes, wouldn't this render the Tiger Tank rather redundant?

General Comment on 4v4s
If 1v1 is balanced That is the best you will get to having 4v4 balanced. Units that are broken in 1v1 are exagerated in 4v4s. Units that are UP in 1v1 are super bad in 4v4. They are more of what they always were not something different in teamgames.

Panther
will be better in 1v1, worse in 4v4 as it can do better outnumbered 2 to 1 with higher dps, but die more easily to 5 SU85s blasting it from the front.

Jagtiger
Having 1,2,3 Jagtigers on the field is clearly broken, theres no real counter to it, with this slight nerf you may be able to adjust Allied Tds being to strong vs nonJT armor later, but since they are all dying to JT Spam in 4v4s it would be difficult to asses what changes are necessary If it doesn't work in Live games against good opponents.

Patches creating new and unforseen problems
They are fixing a problems that clearly exist right now, You cannot fix all the problems that haven't materialized yet, balancing is an ongoing process and changes are all made with the intent of the game becoming better.

I think the biggest balance setbacks have been the additions of New factions/Commanders and the hotfixes to make these factions not broken, not from well intentioned solutions to current problems like are suggested in the DBP

Please give your input on what you guys think should be done with USF smoke:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/66095/dbp-riflemen-smoke-survey

Why not rework OKW vet 4 & 5 to be equal to all other factions vet 3 and make the vet requirements equal. Vet 5 now = to vet 3 and still retains its "fancy" vet 5 cosmetic.

Why not rework OKW vet 4 & 5 to be equal to all other factions vet 3 and make the vet requirements equal. Vet 5 now = to vet 3 and still retains its "fancy" vet 5 cosmetic.

That would be a worthwhile thing to consider. However you'd probably need to give performance/price adjustments to some units; and that's going to be a headache.

At this point, we're triaging the problems of the game from highest-priority to lowest-priority. Thus, instead of wasting all our credit on fixing every single unit in OKW arsenal, we prefer spreading our resources to liven up the other factions as well.

I can't think of any OKW vet5 unit in DBP that is still fundamentally broken. If you can think of any, let us know.

Yeah, ok sure, a vet5 mg-34 might be on the OP side, but that's extremely rare, too.

That would be a worthwhile thing to consider. However you'd probably need to give performance/price adjustments to some units; and that's going to be a headache.

At this point, we're triaging the problems of the game from highest-priority to lowest-priority. Thus, instead of wasting all our credit on fixing every single unit in OKW arsenal, we prefer spreading our resources to liven up the other factions as well.

I can't think of any OKW vet5 unit in DBP that is still fundamentally broken. If you can think of any, let us know.

Yeah, ok sure, a vet5 mg-34 might be on the OP side, but that's extremely rare, too.

I find vet 5 raks OP. But they're not unkillable. Cloaking 75% movespeed with fast RoF. Get lucky they don't hit the dirt and you can wipe things quick. However they still have the issue where all the models bunch up on retreat. So easy wipes for howitzer carries like the bulldozer.

Also, with the QoL cloak change, where the units move at normal speed if revealed, does that fix the issue where the revealed rak crews are still moving and snail pace to recrew the gun?

I find vet 5 raks OP. But they're not unkillable. Cloaking 75% movespeed with fast RoF. Get lucky they don't hit the dirt and you can wipe things quick. However they still have the issue where all the models bunch up on retreat. So easy wipes for howitzer carries like the bulldozer.

Cloaking movespeed has been nerfed to 50%. While that doesn't sound like a lot, it will prevent raketenwerfers from amassing veterancy through search-and-destroy missions.

They'll still be annoying as hell to use/counter, but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning.