December Balance Preview

Cloaking movespeed has been nerfed to 50%. While that doesn't sound like a lot, it will prevent raketenwerfers from amassing veterancy through search-and-destroy missions.

They'll still be annoying as hell to use/counter, but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning.

Well...they would still die to tanks before firing the second shot FRONTALLY too, and will now die frontally to infantry too because of the "fixed" RA of any other team weapons because lacking the "non fixed" green shield any other atg that isn't a meme has, and I can't believe nobody in the team noticed by playing the mod...

"but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning."

You mean the super advanced design that includes volksshrek ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard somewhere that the at gun crews don't actually benefit from the green cover that their gun shields supposedly create. If someone could confidently confirm or deny that I would appreciate it.

The thing still has retreat too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard somewhere that the at gun crews don't actually benefit from the green cover that their gun shields supposedly create. If someone could confidently confirm or deny that I would appreciate it.

The thing still has retreat too.

Oh yeah, funny.
50 range atg with no cover has the ability to rotate the gun and enter in a juicy death loop...

Good news is.... raketen is so trash the enemy won't recrew it actually.

An atg that dies frontally to the trashiest and most inexpensive generalist in game ...

Oh yeah, funny.
50 range atg with no cover has the ability to rotate the gun and enter in a juicy death loop...

Good news is.... raketen is so trash the enemy won't recrew it actually.

So you want it to be able to stand up to single infantry squads like a volks squad like it does now? Because they're hard to wipe with a squad with dps less than double bars even if it's alone and isn't retreated right away. I actually steal them all the time because any at gun is better than no at gun (poor lt) and the fact that they have no gunshield is basically irrelevant until real tanks show up (even if they do give green cover) because you can just retreat it and its original crew is basically normal volksgrenadiers. Time after time I'll find some rak that was sitting in camo with a patrolling rifle squad or section and it'll just retreat after a couple seconds of taking point blank rifle and/or automatic fire and lose maybe 1-2 men.

So it hits the ground sometimes or misses a UC at max range. Boo hoo. Usf at gun can barely penetrate an okw p4 at mid range without constantly spamming ap rounds and will get wiped by stukas (really the only thing stukas excel at though- deleting team weapons).

Well...they would still die to tanks before firing the second shot FRONTALLY too, and will now die frontally to infantry too because of the "fixed" RA of any other team weapons because lacking the "non fixed" green shield any other atg that isn't a meme has, and I can't believe nobody in the team noticed by playing the mod...

"but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning."

You mean the super advanced design that includes volksshrek ?

Old copy paste.

1-The AT gun does not provide green cover for the guys operating the weapon. You do full damage (i can't test accuracy outside of making a mod) either through small arm fire or explosives (grenades or mortar shells for example). Easy to check by either killing the crew with a grenade/mortar or activating the dmg indicator on cheatmods.

2-The AT gun ITSELF does create green cover and each of them has a hitbox (which can blocks incoming shots). The thing is, it's mostly irrelevant for the crew due to formation.
Check the pic (for some reason the rak 4th guy spread out)
Show Spoiler

So yeah, green cover on the AT gun for the crew is useless, cause a shell landing on top of it will kill the 2 operating guys and heavily wound the 3rd guy which might be nearby.

That been said, it's not worthless putting AT guns behind cover, cause that will protect the operators.


Hitbox on AT guns might differ (not to confuse with size) which might intercept shots but would still wound crew operators.

About resource inflation on 1v1 vs 4v4:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61229/resource-income-per-game-mode/page/1#post_id609470

1v1 gets more resources on average till min 15. From that point onwards, 4v4 get's more resources the longer the game drags on. What you can get away with on teamgames (including 2v2) is having one dimensional armies or rushing to certain tiers/vehicles due to not having the requirement of having a proper army which has to control the map. Outside of 1v1, cut offs and resource denial is non existant.

...

Having a proper 1v1 balance doesn't mean you will necessarily have a balanced 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 game. Units that are broken on 1v1 doesn't mean they are equally cancerous on 4v4 or viceversa.

Ex:
Show Spoiler

So you want it to be able to stand up to single infantry squads like a volks squad like it does now? Because they're hard to wipe with a squad with dps less than double bars even if it's alone and isn't retreated right away. I actually steal them all the time because any at gun is better than no at gun (poor lt) and the fact that they have no gunshield is basically irrelevant until real tanks show up (even if they do give green cover) because you can just retreat it and its original crew is basically normal volksgrenadiers. Time after time I'll find some rak that was sitting in camo with a patrolling rifle squad or section and it'll just retreat after a couple seconds of taking point blank rifle and/or automatic fire and lose maybe 1-2 men.

So it hits the ground sometimes or misses a UC at max range. Boo hoo. Usf at gun can barely penetrate an okw p4 at mid range without constantly spamming ap rounds and will get wiped by stukas (really the only thing stukas excel at though- deleting team weapons).

No of course...it's right, it should have same RA of any other factions team weapons, but no shield like other factions team weapons, because balance.

Oh I LOVE double standards..

Barely---> 60% chance of penetration against okw panzer4 at mid range.
The gun itself has:
-An ability to increase pen for that heavy/panther
-FULL 60 range
-An ability to increase such range and provide vision for itself
-An increased rof compared to any other atg PASSIVE.

Usf atg is the second best atg in game right after pak...just saying...and has the highest dps out of all atg against mediums and the highest against heavies with ap...

What, aimed specialized anti team weapons 100 fuel rocket arty useless against any barely decent blobber is actually good at wiping team weapons ?..shocked.
Talking like calliOP "tank" and land "40fuel" mattress dominating in cost efficiency/versatility and saturation aren't ten times better and far more powerful...because double standards...

Old copy paste.


About resource inflation on 1v1 vs 4v4:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61229/resource-income-per-game-mode/page/1#post_id609470

1v1 gets more resources on average till min 15. From that point onwards, 4v4 get's more resources the longer the game drags on. What you can get away with on teamgames (including 2v2) is having one dimensional armies or rushing to certain tiers/vehicles due to not having the requirement of having a proper army which has to control the map. Outside of 1v1, cut offs and resource denial is non existant.


Having a proper 1v1 balance doesn't mean you will necessarily have a balanced 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 game. Units that are broken on 1v1 doesn't mean they are equally cancerous on 4v4 or viceversa.

Ex:
Show Spoiler

Except that
1) raketen by design bunch models (but nobody care, inconsistencies aren't on scope, only on the "RA normalization" is) that makes it easily wipeable more than other atg
2) green cover offers small arms protection..and a 50 range atg not having such protection means a LOT.
3) green cover STILL affect aoe based explosion of several kinds, including grenades and mortar shells scattered falling beyond the green cover.
4) the point 2 makes raketen even weaker against tank than point 1, because t34/sherman/whatever mg/pintle considerably damage the crew even frontally.

Like I said, nothing beyond 2vs2 should exist, it simply isnt playable..
You perfectly showed good points regarding how "clusterfuck" modes affect balance..

Guys, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just look at Coh 1 Panther. It was perfect. Average to slower firing, but dealing tons of damage to tanks.

IMO Just keep the live RoF, but increase damage to 200. More alpha damage, Better against prediums and lights, but pretty much the same against TDs and mediums (4 shots). Equalize moving accuracy to .65 to both OKW/OST version.

This was the Panther recipe in COH1 and it worked flawlessly.

Rework Vet2. Ost one loses the +10% armor but gains +5 range at vet 2 or 3 like Tiger (OST is the only one without a 60 range TD), OKW one képes the 10% armor, loses the range or gains some sort of offensive bonus.

I am also very much in agreement with Stug changes. Increase base armor by 28%, decrease ROF and Pen by 14-14%. Less cheese turbo firing, more useful and survivable late game. Increase damage against garrisons and emplacements to give it a secondary, historical role.

+1 KISS at its best. Sadly, I don't think it'll get adopted.

Except that
1) raketen by design bunch models (but nobody care, inconsistencies aren't on scope, only on the "RA normalization" is) that makes it easily wipeable more than other atg
2) green cover offers small arms protection..and a 50 range atg not having such protection means a LOT.
3) green cover STILL affect aoe based explosion of several kinds, including grenades and mortar shells scattered falling beyond the green cover.
4) the point 2 makes raketen even weaker against tank than point 1, because t34/sherman/whatever mg/pintle considerably damage the crew even frontally.

Like I said, nothing beyond 2vs2 should exist, it simply isnt playable..
You perfectly showed good points regarding how "clusterfuck" modes affect balance..

Did u read my post or not? The AT gun shield doesn't affect the guys manning the weapons. They get both full damage from small arm fire and explosives. On the past i did this by activating cheatcommands and looking at the damage a single Ober model (can't miss with vet) would do to all 2 man AT gun crew.
Due to how targeting works and formations, 90% of the time the models which are focus fired first and targeted are the ones manning the crew. Why? Because they are in the front and are the only available targets once infantry/vehicles enter on it's range.

Now check the pic for the default formation on the rest of the AT guns. It's a V shape on which the other 2 crews are separated so they don't all die to a single AoE shell. The only AT gun crew which benefits them is the Zis gun, because 2 models are been protected by the AT gun itself.

I'll give you an example from the most recent game i could find casted by Dane.


19:23 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9cQ3GlTtPE&feature=youtu.be&t=1163 cause it doesnt seem to pick the vid with the timeline.

Once a single model dies on any 4man crew weapon, it will "magically" pop up a green shield because the majority of the models are supposedly behind cover (the 2 guys behind the weapons) but they don't benefit from them. Only when due to moving the weapon and other units passing by forcing the crew to move they will get behind cover. The default formation on all AT guns crew don't let them benefit from the At guns cover.

Asking for the AT gun to provide green cover is never gonna be implemented because there's a fundamental difference:
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1942_zis-3_76mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1937_53-k_45mm_at_gun_squad_mp (this one i can't remember if it provides cover)
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=pak40_75mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=brit_6_pounder_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1_57mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=raketenwerfer43_88mm_puppchen_antitank_gun_squad_mp

Don't bother with the stats, take a look at the model.
The only difference between with other AT guns is that the weapon itself probably has a bigger hitbox which will block incoming scatter shots (which i'm not sure if it's good or bad due to AoE).


NOW, what probably happens in the late game, is that due to craters forming up, crew will try to stay together inside those craters. This will force crew to change their default formation to bunch up inside, which for other AT guns means having 2 models benefiting from the green cover at best.

The best buff the Rak could ever receive is this: Projectile now ignores terrain elevation

NOW, what probably happens in the late game, is that due to craters forming up, crew will try to stay together inside those craters. This will force crew to change their default formation to bunch up inside, which for other AT guns means having 2 models benefiting from the green cover at best.

The best buff the Rak could ever receive is this: Projectile now ignores terrain elevation

That, plus the weapon-team formation changes in DBP that make the crew ignore craters when setting up their formations.

Did u read my post or not? The AT gun shield doesn't affect the guys manning the weapons. They get both full damage from small arm fire and explosives. On the past i did this by activating cheatcommands and looking at the damage a single Ober model (can't miss with vet) would do to all 2 man AT gun crew.
Due to how targeting works and formations, 90% of the time the models which are focus fired first and targeted are the ones manning the crew. Why? Because they are in the front and are the only available targets once infantry/vehicles enter on it's range.

Now check the pic for the default formation on the rest of the AT guns. It's a V shape on which the other 2 crews are separated so they don't all die to a single AoE shell. The only AT gun crew which benefits them is the Zis gun, because 2 models are been protected by the AT gun itself.

I'll give you an example from the most recent game i could find casted by Dane.


19:23 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9cQ3GlTtPE&feature=youtu.be&t=1163 cause it doesnt seem to pick the vid with the timeline.

Once a single model dies on any 4man crew weapon, it will "magically" pop up a green shield because the majority of the models are supposedly behind cover (the 2 guys behind the weapons) but they don't benefit from them. Only when due to moving the weapon and other units passing by forcing the crew to move they will get behind cover. The default formation on all AT guns crew don't let them benefit from the At guns cover.

Asking for the AT gun to provide green cover is never gonna be implemented because there's a fundamental difference:
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1942_zis-3_76mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1937_53-k_45mm_at_gun_squad_mp (this one i can't remember if it provides cover)
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=pak40_75mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=brit_6_pounder_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m1_57mm_at_gun_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=raketenwerfer43_88mm_puppchen_antitank_gun_squad_mp

Don't bother with the stats, take a look at the model.
The only difference between with other AT guns is that the weapon itself probably has a bigger hitbox which will block incoming scatter shots (which i'm not sure if it's good or bad due to AoE).


NOW, what probably happens in the late game, is that due to craters forming up, crew will try to stay together inside those craters. This will force crew to change their default formation to bunch up inside, which for other AT guns means having 2 models benefiting from the green cover at best.

The best buff the Rak could ever receive is this: Projectile now ignores terrain elevation

Honestly the player in video keep the gun up and moving, with models being on the sides carrying it, far from an example.
Additionally health started dropping when atg started moving.

And how is irrelevant ? 2 extra models are out of cover, AND ?
Soldiers focus small arms fire on those manning, not the extra operators.
As far as I know, regardless of shield size, ALL ATG have green cover that actually benefit at least 2 operators like zis..those manning it.

FFS it was under fire FRONTALLY, it got no damage, then received a rifle nade and kept gun up and models carrying it were shot and started receiving full damage, it ACTUALLY proves normal ATG benefit from it....

"Once a single model dies on any 4man crew weapon, it will "magically" pop up a green shield because the majority of the models are supposedly behind cover"

NONONO, ABSOLUTELY LOL
That's not how it works, green cover is for single entity, a model in negative of a squad of 5 men with 4 men in cover will get negative malus and simply die regardless of his m8's.

Not sure if this information can be shared, but is there an ETA for USF and OKW Commanders/Doctrines? It doesn't have to be specific, just something like this week, next week, the week of the 11th, etc.

And how is irrelevant ? 2 extra models are out of cover, AND ?
Soldiers focus small arms fire on those manning, not the extra operators.
As far as I know, regardless of shield size, ALL ATG have green cover that actually benefit at least 2 operators like zis..those manning it.

I think you misunderstood something. elchino7 clearly stated:

1-The AT gun does not provide green cover for the guys operating the weapon. You do full damage (i can't test accuracy outside of making a mod) either through small arm fire or explosives (grenades or mortar shells for example). Easy to check by either killing the crew with a grenade/mortar or activating the dmg indicator on cheatmods.

So only the guys standing beside the gun benefit from the green cover at most.
So if you have a 2 man Zis gun and a 2 man Raketen both would have the same cover benefits (=none). Thus would die similarly easy from tank fire, small arms.

NONONO, ABSOLUTELY LOL
That's not how it works, green cover is for single entity, a model in negative of a squad of 5 men with 4 men in cover will get negative malus and simply die regardless of his m8's.

And again you confused something. Elchino is not talking about how cover affects units, but how the covershield works. It shows what cover type the majority of the squad is in. (4men in green, 1 in red would still mean green shield.) At least that's how I understand this.

I think you misunderstood something. elchino7 clearly stated:

So only the guys standing beside the gun benefit from the green cover at most.
So if you have a 2 man Zis gun and a 2 man Raketen both would have the same cover benefits (=none). Thus would die similarly easy from tank fire, small arms.

And again you confused something. Elchino is not talking about how cover affects units, but how the covershield works. It shows what cover type the majority of the squad is in. (4men in green, 1 in red would still mean green shield.) At least that's how I understand this.

Ehm..not really, even though I didn't get original elchino point, it is actually wrong anyway.
Those manning the atg BENEFIT from cover, the point is pretty much proved by elchino own source...that atg is under grens g43 fire for 3 seconds at 5 ms range, panzer 4ms and so on, the health doesn't drop of an inch, than models move atg and get killed as they aren't behind cover anymore.

"And again you confused something. Elchino is not talking about how cover affects units, but how the covershield works. It shows what cover type the majority of the squad is in. (4men in green, 1 in red would still mean green shield.) At least that's how I understand this."

And you clearly missed me saying it's irrelevant.
The bonus of RA is given to single models in cover, and operators BENEFIT from it.
The game showing you green shield because more than half the models are in green cover is just ui.
Like elchino said, the operators drawn enemy fire frontally, and since operators are in green cover, the cover benefir whole squad.

Ok then it comes down to you just saying elchino7 is wrong.
Now is the time to prove it.
Go in game, enable cheatmode, turn damage numbers on. Then spawn a Zis gun and a Raketen. Kill all but 2 men and then let a single enemy unit shoot them. (For example a single gren) If you are correct, the damage should be halved (green cover 50% damage reduction). If not the at gun doesn't provide cover. Screenshot it upload it here. It's that simple.
I would do it myself but I am not in front of my gaming pc.

Edit: To make it even easier for you, take one grenadier model with an Kar98. Normally it does 16 damage.
Show Spoiler
So if you are correct one shoot should deal only 16*0.5=8 damage.

Ok then it comes down to you just saying elchino7 is wrong.
Now is the time to prove it.
Go in game, enable cheatmode, turn damage numbers on. Then spawn a Zis gun and a Raketen. Kill all but 2 men and then let a single enemy unit shoot them. (For example a single gren) If you are correct, the damage should be halved (green cover 50% damage reduction). If not the at gun doesn't provide cover. Screenshot it upload it here. It's that simple.
I would do it myself but I am not in front of my gaming pc.

Nope elchino theory of no green cover is just theory, and there is no source confirming it.

Any atg but raketenwerfer provides cover, experience of flanking vs frontal attack that his very own source confirmed just show that atg are far more resilient than raketenwerfer in their front and less at their back.

A 1.25 RA model would never survive without green cover to begin with anyway.

I think it is elchino that needs to prove his very own extravagant theory based on visuals of crew formation and a replay with a moving atg crew dying...

Nope elchino theory of no green cover is just theory, and there is no source confirming it.

Any atg but raketenwerfer provides cover, experience of flanking vs frontal attack that his very own source confirmed just show that atg are far more resilient than raketenwerfer in their front and less at their back.

A 1.25 RA model would never survive without green cover to begin with anyway.

I think it is elchino that needs to prove his very own extravagant theory based on visuals of crew formation and a replay with a moving atg crew dying...

And how can something like this be showed through screenshots XD ?

Nope elchino theory of no green cover is just theory, and there is no source confirming it.

Any atg but raketenwerfer provides cover, experience of flanking vs frontal attack that his very own source confirmed just show that atg are far more resilient than raketenwerfer in their front and less at their back.

A 1.25 RA model would never survive without green cover to begin with anyway.

I think it is elchino that needs to prove his very own extravagant theory based on visuals of crew formation and a replay with a moving atg crew dying...

It would be easier if you just did what I asked you to. But hey what did I expect?
And a screenshot from the moment the damage number shows up is enough. You could also compare the health of the operating at gun members before and after the shot...
But if you dont trust this, you could always make a video.

It would be easier if you just did what I asked you to. But hey what did I expect?
And a screenshot from the moment the damage number shows up is enough. You could also compare the health of the operating at gun members before and after the shot...
But if you dont trust this, you could always make a video.

1)I'm not anyone's chauffeur, I'm sure that elchino has a lot to give and can contribute a lot to the community, but he will do it by proving his own points by himself, especially if he bother starting such discussion quoting others. Asking KINDLY may result in exceptions.

2)You implied I have my gaming rig with me and that I have no other plans/stuff/better things to do...you would do it, if you just had your own pc amiright? Well if you feel like that I can surely wait

...

Since i don't have any recording software ATM, i can't upload it but the pics and information i posted before is HOW THE FREAKING GAME is actually working right now (i just test it again).

You can be delusional and live in a world where a green icon provides you with placebo cover, or you can actually launch the game and see how the 2 guys on the weapons are dying as if they had no cover whatsoever.

Edit:

I'm amused by the level and variety of bugs this game has. AT gun cover operators (so i can found this post later)
@Smith do you think this is possible to fix so it works as it should (operators getting cover all the time)?

There's a fringe case on which operators DO benefit from cover. I only made the test with the Zis and the Pak40 with a single Ober model (vet3 for acc) and Gren (for Rifle nade).
-If the weapon is aiming at the center of it's arc, there's no cover whatsoever. You can move around 360° (just in case the directional cover was bugged) and you will still hit for 16dmg (Kar damage model).
-Now, when the weapon move to the limit of the arc, there's a pretty small window/arc on which the operators will benefit from having green cover ONLY at something like 20° from the center of the position at which they are aiming. This will affect small arm fire and explosives (note: explosive cover consideration only matters for the position from which it was fired, not where it lands).
-It seems that each AT gun might have a different arc on which cover applies when aiming to the sides.



Orange side is the position on which you fill benefit from cover.

Edit2: even more fun.

USF:
When looking to the left, it doesn't provide green (shield disappears). Yes when in middle and to the right. Pretty small gap of cover when looking to the right, same to the left depending on which model it is targeting.
SU:
The opposite, when looking to the right no cover but there's a small gap on which 1 of the models has cover. When looking to the left, the green cover applies up to 180 going counter clockwise from the center.
OH:
Same behaviour as Zis but on both sides. More cover.
UKF:
Same as Zis.


TL;DR: Update on the situation. You basically get no cover on operators 90% of the time unless they are aiming at specific points depending on each AT gun.