FBP: M36 Jackson Discussion

+1

Jumbo would be nice. Unlockable after all techs for example. USF lacks of serious late game units

Stronger jakson is a step in right direction but bigger diversity would be welcome as well.

The Pershing along the Calliopes, E8s, Rangers and Riflemen blobs SORT OF make up for their late game but yes, in general they are still lacking and cannot fight OKW late game for example, and they're not meant to, but still, the Brits can still stand up to the OKW in the late game some what because of their better tanks.

And that lack the USF have would be remedied with some more meet on their tanks, or just a meaty tank like the already mentioned Jumbo.

I like the change but this cost will put an end to the Jackson on 1vs1. USF will be completely helpless vs medium rush.
So as an idea why not simply putting an upgrade to the Jackson, adding health and whatever. So we have a Jackson live version + 1 upgrade per Jackson so you can turn one to be more powerful late game. Something like 100munition to get your final version of the Jackson.

USF have no problems vs mediums without jacksons (bazookas, at nade, atg)

USF have no problems vs mediums without jacksons (bazookas, at nade, atg)

Now I wish the USF ATG was in tier 0 now, so I could use it more often, poor LT Tier.

I like the change but this cost will put an end to the Jackson on 1vs1.

An extra 50 mp and 20 fuel is going to put an end to jacksons in 1v1. You literally have to wait 1min longer for a jackson that is far more durable bordering on unkillable on certain maps and/or if protected well.

USF will be completely helpless vs medium rush.

Usf will only have to fear the new Ost Ostwind and the changes to m10 may cause timing issues for some but in reality the delay is only a minute or two. And usf has ample soft Anti Tank.

So as an idea why not simply putting an upgrade to the Jackson, adding health and whatever. So we have a Jackson live version + 1 upgrade per Jackson so you can turn one to be more powerful late game. Something like 100munition to get your final version of the Jackson.

The reason that the fuel/manpower price is increasing is not only due to better health, but to also delay jacksons reaching critical mass. Usf are not always starved for muni. I would be more accepting of moving health increase to vet 1, at least then there is some incentive to be cautious with it and there is some reward to axis if it is destroyed.

4. Infantry-based AT such as ATGs or Shrecks are its hardest counters. Panthers and StuG Gs end up in the soft counter role since both units combat each other, though they also hardcounter the other two units in the USF Major tier. In a slugfest a StuG G should still win vs the Jackson due to its rate of fire should you close at an odd angle or catch it by surprise. I guess mass mediums could also work depending if the Jackson gets any pricer where it's not cost effective to mass Jacksons against medium tank groups.

Of course the issue is distance, but our main thing will likely be adjust the Jackson's accuracy at this point so it's less viable against medium tanks.

My personal thing is that I want to improve Panther and PIV but the usual scope locks us out. I tried to get the Panther in as a TD/TH to no avail.

Your answer to 4. Is the biggest problem ostheer has right now, especially in team games since Jackson can kite infantry units easily with its mobility. In addition, pgrens are squishy and lose to any infantry once upgraded. They just can't shoot more than once before having to retreat or get wiped, especially with all the rocket artillery and indirect fire flying around.

I understand the changes to panther were left out. It's gonna be a rough patch for ostheer tanks imo.

In my opinion, the FBP Jackson just overshadows the stock Sherman.

A good solution for the USF faction as a whole may be to increase the health of the Sherman. If the Sherman's health were boosted from 640 to 720, like the Bulldozer and Easy 8, the USF would have a tank that could actually absorb shells. The 'dozer and E8 could even go to 800 health. American tanks aren't known for their armor, but a solid health pool on those tin cans might give USF that late-game staying power.

But, like a broken record, Ostheer Panther and the Tiger I are probably the the real dead weights in the scales of balance. And the poor Ostheer P4, being powercreeped into oblivion due in part to OKW. (And T34/76 honorable mention. But at least they saw AI buffs.)

In my opinion, the FBP Jackson just overshadows the stock Sherman.

A good solution for the USF faction as a whole may be to increase the health of the Sherman. If the Sherman's health were boosted from 640 to 720, like the Bulldozer and Easy 8, the USF would have a tank that could actually absorb shells. The 'dozer and E8 could even go to 800 health. American tanks aren't known for their armor, but a solid health pool on those tin cans might give USF that late-game staying power.

But, like a broken record, Ostheer Panther and the Tiger I are probably the the real dead weights in the scales of balance. And the poor Ostheer P4, being powercreeped into oblivion due in part to OKW. (And T34/76 honorable mention. But at least they saw AI buffs.)

The Sherman kills Infantry and the Jackson kills Tanks, there is nothing wrong with the Sherman as a shock unit that you rush when you have fuel lead, I wouldn't mind buffs to it though.

The Sherman kills Infantry and the Jackson kills Tanks, there is nothing wrong with the Sherman as a shock unit that you rush when you have fuel lead, I wouldn't mind buffs to it though.

That's only if you leave the Sherman on HE rounds. Which I always do and anyone in their right mind does. (Actually I use the Scott, Which is also kind of hinting at the problem too.)

The timing of the Sherman just doesn't really fit into being much of a shock unit either. It's around the time of Panzer 4s and has the choice between being able to kill infantry or sorta match with Panzer 4s.

I get what you mean though, that's definitely the supposed role of the Sherman. I just don't think it really plays out that way. The Jackson and Sherman are usually competing for resources more often than not and the one with the more critical role (AT) wins out.

USF's whole advantage is beating down axis infantry.

That's only if you leave the Sherman on HE rounds. Which I always do and anyone in their right mind does. (Actually I use the Scott, Which is also kind of hinting at the problem too.)

The timing of the Sherman just doesn't really fit into being much of a shock unit either. It's around the time of Panzer 4s and has the choice between being able to kill infantry or sorta match with Panzer 4s.

I get what you mean though, that's definitely the supposed role of the Sherman. I just don't think it really plays out that way. The Jackson and Sherman are usually competing for resources more often than not and the one with the more critical role (AT) wins out.

USF's whole advantage is beating down axis infantry.

Scotts are underrated and are better for "All In" assaults than Shermans, Shermans just scale better, and make wonderful tank "blobs".

I feel it fills the niche very nicely if you can get a fuel lead, plus it can discourage sending units to ninja cap, it's one of the best USF units for that job, forcing the enemy to spread their forces and giving you ample angles of attack.

I could see people getting a Jackson first, then massing Shermans for USF lategame, which I'm really excited to try.

An extra 50 mp and 20 fuel is going to put an end to jacksons in 1v1. You literally have to wait 1min longer for a jackson that is far more durable bordering on unkillable on certain maps and/or if protected well.


Usf will only have to fear the new Ost Ostwind and the changes to m10 may cause timing issues for some but in reality the delay is only a minute or two. And usf has ample soft Anti Tank.



The reason that the fuel/manpower price is increasing is not only due to better health, but to also delay jacksons reaching critical mass. Usf are not always starved for muni. I would be more accepting of moving health increase to vet 1, at least then there is some incentive to be cautious with it and there is some reward to axis if it is destroyed.

Were you telling the same story to ostheer players complaining about teh pz4 costing 20 fuel more than the sherman?
I don't think so because it is a stupid argument, one minute count on 1vs1, many things can happened. Would you agree to start getting control on your unit 1 minute after your opponent at the game start?

Already 80% of usf players use the m10 instead Of teching to the m36. Because getting a Jackson is really expensive to only counter tanks.

Now my opinion is that both live and mod version of the jackson are good but they fill 2 different gaps.

In my opinion, the FBP Jackson just overshadows the stock Sherman.

A good solution for the USF faction as a whole may be to increase the health of the Sherman. If the Sherman's health were boosted from 640 to 720, like the Bulldozer and Easy 8, the USF would have a tank that could actually absorb shells. The 'dozer and E8 could even go to 800 health. American tanks aren't known for their armor, but a solid health pool on those tin cans might give USF that late-game staying power.

But, like a broken record, Ostheer Panther and the Tiger I are probably the the real dead weights in the scales of balance. And the poor Ostheer P4, being powercreeped into oblivion due in part to OKW. (And T34/76 honorable mention. But at least they saw AI buffs.)

And/Or make it able to deflect something bigger than a luchs 20mm sometimes.

The Sherman kills Infantry and the Jackson kills Tanks, there is nothing wrong with the Sherman as a shock unit that you rush when you have fuel lead, I wouldn't mind buffs to it though.

I think that there would be a lot of merit to having shermans that can stand up to punishment in order to screen for Jacksons, a little like coh1 and m10s (except Jacksons are more like snipers than flankers).

Finally allies have something that can fight with jagdtigers/elephants. And that's great.

Finally allies have something that can fight with jagdtigers/elephants. And that's great.

Considering the nerfs of the Jagtigers and elefants, this has nothing to do with the Jackson, rather the nerfs for the prior units.

Were you telling the same story to ostheer players complaining about teh pz4 costing 20 fuel more than the sherman?
I don't think so because it is a stupid argument, one minute count on 1vs1, many things can happened. Would you agree to start getting control on your unit 1 minute after your opponent at the game start?

Usf do not generally struggle At wise until heavies arrive ( approx 20min ) unless they have gone full retard on AI upgrades ( nades, bars, Lt, mg, indirect fire, LV's ). As to your point about waiting one minute longer at start of game, well that's completely nonsensical and irrelevant. Jackson is a TD with a specific role ( to hardcounter any other vehicle )and as such time of arrival is important otherwise it completely shuts down ost T3.

Already 80% of usf players use the m10 instead Of teching to the m36. Because getting a Jackson is really expensive to only counter tanks.

M10 is popular because it is op and somewhat necessary to count other No Tech callins. M10's are hugely cost effective and as callins can not only make an instant impact on the game but can also be massed quickly if the player has the resources. M10's being op in respect to cost efficiencey also allow usf to put more resources into without worrying about At. Once Smith fixes callins then m10 meta will no longer be necessary and can toned down.

Now my opinion is that both live and mod version of the jackson are good but they fill 2 different gaps.

This is rubbish as Jackson is now better across all game modes. The increase in cost is largely irrelevant due to the changes to callins for all factions. Besides I think almost all players would be happier to wait longer ( 1 min ) for higher health jackson.

2. Will hit the StuG G 60% of the time at maximum if it is stationary. 69% vs the Panzer IV.

Thx for explanation. Makes a lot of things clearer.

Jacksons are not a unit I see regularly due to pershing / M10 meta being more dominant so I am not entirely clear on specific stats ( ie how many pack shots / stug shots etc ). Almost every time I have taken jackson down I have had superior At, or was able to trap it due to pathing or rng.

So old stats vs new stats.

1. How many pack shots (live vs patch)
2. How many P4 shots (live vs patch)
3. How many stug shots (live vs patch)
4. How many schreck shots (live vs patch)

I do realize that almost all vehicle engagements come down to opportunity, range, rng, pathing etc etc but for those of us that do not follow stats exactly, knowing how many extra pack shots/scheck/tank shots are required would be helpful. I am assuming we are looking at 1 more volley from all at sources.

...
So old stats vs new stats.
...

Most axis tanks/tds do 160, Pschr does 120, the new Jackson has 600 HP. You can find the damage of most weapons here:
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/index.php

Jackson needs
Increased accuracy
Decreased Target Size

Jackson needs
Increased accuracy
Decreased Target Size

why?

Most axis tanks/tds do 160, Pschr does 120, the new Jackson has 600 HP. You can find the damage of most weapons here:
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/index.php

Thx for the info.

I think going for a doctrine with smoke will be mandatory when playing vs usf. Also if p4 doesn't become obsolete, it will only be used for patrolling the edges of the battle and will probably require a shreck escort.

Jackson needs
Increased accuracy
Decreased Target Size

and the ability to 1 shot every tank from the other side of the map right ?