FBP: M36 Jackson Discussion

The Jackson right now is being buffed solely on its performance verses super heavies which is honestly terrible balancing and being very narrow minded. Jackson is fine in 1v1 and 2v2 but not in 3v3 and 4v4's mainly because of ele/jagd's. I personally think it doesn't really need major buffs its getting

1- Make repairing them cost manpower and fuel, a full repair could cost between 1/3 and 1/2 of their initial price.

2- Make them un-repairable neither from pioneers, sturmpioneers or the OKW truck. Once dead, you must call another one. To mitigate it, remove the engine damage on them.

I agree with this but also,

The Pershing should be non-doc and its health increased so it can also be a meat shield and be the AI for a Jackson (good in the AT department too). The Pershing should be like how the OKW King tiger works, you need to have fully tech'd like OKW trucks and be able to call in 1 at a time. Because you need tech, the price of the Pershing should go down and possibly its pop cap too, cuz chances are you've kept all the officers alive.

Regarding the heavy cav doc, replace the Pershing with callope or something

What about altering the size of the heavies its meant to counter? Right now the super-heavies and a P4 only have 4(?) points of size difference between them, its definitely not enough to make a substantial difference.

Basically, it's this.

If we tune Jackson to miss vs target-size 2 P4's, it's going to also miss vs target size 26 KTs. And, oh boy, it's also going to miss a lot vs target-size 13 Blitzking KTs.

You don't need target tables to settle this. You just need target sizes that make sense.

Basically, it's this.

If we tune Jackson to miss vs target-size 2 P4's, it's going to also miss vs target size 26 KTs. And, oh boy, it's also going to miss a lot vs target-size 13 Blitzking KTs.

You don't need target tables to settle this. You just need target sizes that make sense.

You should also check vet bonuses. Td should be getting penetration and not accuracy as a bonus.

Basically, it's this.

If we tune Jackson to miss vs target-size 2 P4's, it's going to also miss vs target size 26 KTs. And, oh boy, it's also going to miss a lot vs target-size 13 Blitzking KTs.

You don't need target tables to settle this. You just need target sizes that make sense.

Then the problem is in bullshit abilities and the fact that the difference between light tanks and super heavies is negligible.

im tired of going LT just to be punished later by axis armor coz you know usf paper armor

Yeah, going LT and all goes well until a single StuG/JP4 shows up, then you can't use your Sherman or Jackson freely anymore.

Yeah, going LT and all goes well until a single StuG/JP4 shows up, then you can't use your Sherman or Jackson freely anymore.

lel u USF players want ur tanks to roam around freely forever with no counters on the field xD

lel u USF players want ur tanks to roam around freely forever with no counters on the field xD

Actually nope. Usf just doesnt have access to everything at once like okw has. You either get access to mg or to an at gun. xD If you go lt you dont have access to an at gun but you are a little bit better vs AI. Cpt tier is more AT. It would be fine if LT was actually heavy AI and gave you something like luchs that is actually worth rushing for but what you do get is a miserable m20 that is hardly usefu;, a poor replica of an mg with very bad stats and AA ht that can only attack when turned backwards (which is a micro hell). Only thing actually good from LT tier is the LT because he has a bar and thompson gun which makes him great vs infantry. Besides him the units are not even mediocre. They are just bad at their main purpose. But its just fun to do something else for a change instead of defualting to cpt because you know lt tier is basically useless.

Now OKW on the other hand has a lot of tactical differences and advantages of each tier. Med truck gives you FRP, healing (on top of volks self healing and sturmpios med packages), autofire isg requiring no micro at all with great range, excellent AA ht with instapin and high dps and a cheating see through fog of war unit. Mech truck gives you the best and the fastest arty in game, best light AT vehicle in the game, best light AI vehicle in the game. Not to mention that either of them unlocks both fausts, nades and stg44 for your main infantry. Now thats what I call a great upgrade packet, usf has to pay 300 mp and 40 fuel to get the same. And each of these tiers gives you access to fantastic units and different playstyles. I mean what else could you even dream of in this game? Am I right? And all of this while also having always access to an at gun? WOW its so much fun! So yeah usf in return would humbly like to have access to both at gun and a tank without being forced to go a specific tier all the time, nothing special, just normal.

Basically, it's this.

If we tune Jackson to miss vs target-size 2 P4's, it's going to also miss vs target size 26 KTs. And, oh boy, it's also going to miss a lot vs target-size 13 Blitzking KTs.

You don't need target tables to settle this. You just need target sizes that make sense.

There's also armor values.

If the penetration on the Jackson were exceptionally high compared to the grand arsenal of mediums they would be able to damage heavy tanks much more reliably without affecting their accuracy or the size of their targets.

I feel like armor values are as non-sensible as target-sizes and pop cap.

There's also armor values.

If the penetration on the Jackson were exceptionally high compared to the grand arsenal of mediums they would be able to damage heavy tanks much more reliably without affecting their accuracy or the size of their targets.

I feel like armor values are as non-sensible as target-sizes and pop cap.

Armour values aren't so bad (at least nowhere near as terrible as popcap and target size). What's bad is that penetration values across the board are very flat. Your medium tank has roughly the same chance to penetrate while sniping the enemy heavy from afar, just like going point blank (where it's kill-or-be killed territory).

At the same time, vehicles also lack side armour, which means that firing from the side might lead to, sometimes, your shots hitting front, or sometimes hitting the juicy rear armour. Since rear armour for heavies has been nerfed to be almost always penetrated by mediums at any range, you get the frustrating frontal rear-armour snipes that degrade heavies.

Also, designing a turreted tank that has a very high penetration gun might lead to pantheritis, where you get no reward for flanking the enemy (except for risking your own very expensive vehicle).

But yeah; penetration is the way to go if you want to draw a line between efficiency vs mediums and efficiency vs heavies.

Also, designing a turreted tank that has a very high penetration gun might lead to pantheritis, where you get no reward for flanking the enemy (except for risking your own very expensive vehicle).

Possibly but there are incredible advantages to flanking that can't possibly be discounted ever, but yeah in the straight stats advantage the panther doesn't really gain an advantage hitting allied rear armor.

The benefits of the panther is that it can actually get itself into a position to flank.

I'm not sure I could call something "pantheritis" because the main issue with the panther is shared with the tiger and has more to do with cost-efficiency and timing than risk-reward when flanking.

only thing i concern is that the last shot of hvap is always disappears in the air and takes the reload too. i really want to know when relics will fix it

Basically, it's this.

If we tune Jackson to miss vs target-size 2 P4's, it's going to also miss vs target size 26 KTs. And, oh boy, it's also going to miss a lot vs target-size 13 Blitzking KTs.

You don't need target tables to settle this. You just need target sizes that make sense.

I'm guessing you mean 20-something when you say 2 right?

Actually nope. Usf just doesnt have access to everything at once like okw has. You either get access to mg or to an at gun. xD If you go lt you dont have access to an at gun but you are a little bit better vs AI. Cpt tier is more AT. It would be fine if LT was actually heavy AI and gave you something like luchs that is actually worth rushing for but what you do get is a miserable m20 that is hardly usefu;, a poor replica of an mg with very bad stats and AA ht that can only attack when turned backwards (which is a micro hell). Only thing actually good from LT tier is the LT because he has a bar and thompson gun which makes him great vs infantry. Besides him the units are not even mediocre. They are just bad at their main purpose. But its just fun to do something else for a change instead of defualting to cpt because you know lt tier is basically useless.

Now OKW on the other hand has a lot of tactical differences and advantages of each tier. Med truck gives you FRP, healing (on top of volks self healing and sturmpios med packages), autofire isg requiring no micro at all with great range, excellent AA ht with instapin and high dps and a cheating see through fog of war unit. Mech truck gives you the best and the fastest arty in game, best light AT vehicle in the game, best light AI vehicle in the game. Not to mention that either of them unlocks both fausts, nades and stg44 for your main infantry. Now thats what I call a great upgrade packet, usf has to pay 300 mp and 40 fuel to get the same. And each of these tiers gives you access to fantastic units and different playstyles. I mean what else could you even dream of in this game? Am I right? And all of this while also having always access to an at gun? WOW its so much fun! So yeah usf in return would humbly like to have access to both at gun and a tank without being forced to go a specific tier all the time, nothing special, just normal.

The point about not having access to things as usf is very valid, but I feel like you sell some things a bit too short. The .50 is actually really good, as it has great dps and a very fast setup/teardown, and can penetrate 222s and pumas. It does seem to be very inconsistent at suppressing though, sometimes doing it in less than one burst, and sometimes taking at least 2 full ones, which sucks because they're very short with long delays in between. The AAHT only shooting backwards isn't a huge deal, not enough to really mess with it beyond the shitty pathing that often means the death of a lot of light vehicles, and it doesn't have to setup or anything like the okw halftrack (which has its own merits). I find it a much better choice than the Stuart now, and people often forget it can pen luchs back, which is funny (it'll still lose badly in a 1v1 ofc, because Germans or something). The m20 is just severely overpriced.

Armour values aren't so bad (at least nowhere near as terrible as popcap and target size). What's bad is that penetration values across the board are very flat. Your medium tank has roughly the same chance to penetrate while sniping the enemy heavy from afar, just like going point blank (where it's kill-or-be killed territory).

At the same time, vehicles also lack side armour, which means that firing from the side might lead to, sometimes, your shots hitting front, or sometimes hitting the juicy rear armour. Since rear armour for heavies has been nerfed to be almost always penetrated by mediums at any range, you get the frustrating frontal rear-armour snipes that degrade heavies.

Also, designing a turreted tank that has a very high penetration gun might lead to pantheritis, where you get no reward for flanking the enemy (except for risking your own very expensive vehicle).

But yeah; penetration is the way to go if you want to draw a line between efficiency vs mediums and efficiency vs heavies.

I seem to notice that shermans have a decent chance of sometimes maybe penning a (nonvetted) panther frontally at really close range, like while I'm trying to flank, which isn't something I'd bet even one rifleman model on at long range, let alone a sherman. Same thing seems to apply to small cannons (base 20mms, flakhq, ostwind, etc) to sherman front armor. Other than that, I've never really noticed range making a difference, which kinda sucks.

lel u USF players want ur tanks to roam around freely forever with no counters on the field xD

Maybe you should play USF a bit?
You'll see how helpless their Tank Destroyers can be, massing Shermans and pulling ballz deep flanks is often more successful than using Jackson against anything but Lone Big Cats, except on maps where you can't use your range advantage due to sight blockers everywhere.