Forward retreat points.

For the Brits, i would lock their retreat point ability (not the building itself) til they have bought either hammer or anvil tech. And it would also be a great time to also unlock the OKW's retreat point ability (not the truck itself). Unlock after 3 or 4 trucks are setup ?

The middle game is a better place for FRP. (to my view)

Yeah, I could get behind that

locking FRP behind later tiers so it comes later....

I disagree. yes, making it come later will make people be more cautious with it.

but I still believe that no one should have ability to hard retreat but still save time - that goes completely against hard retreat.

hard retreat gives you exceptional resistant to small arms in exchange for requiring you to go all the way back to your base. and I think the that particular system should always stay that way unaltered. well, it was altered, but change it back .

this phobia of removing FRP makes me wonder how we ever played SOV and OST... and how some people still play them.

locking FRP behind later tiers so it comes later....

I disagree. yes, making it come later will make people be more cautious with it.

but I still believe that no one should have ability to hard retreat but still save time - that goes completely against hard retreat.

hard retreat gives you exceptional resistant to small arms in exchange for requiring you to go all the way back to your base. and I think the that particular system should always stay that way unaltered. well, it was altered, but change it back .

this phobia of removing FRP makes me wonder how we ever played SOV and OST... and how some people still play them.

Yes! The fact that a lot of people are so married to the idea of FRPs (and even want to give them to EFA lol) has been my biggest take away from this, which is a little scary.

It is my opinion that relic will not likely remove a mechanic completely, thus the best way to adjust issues would be to looking at severely limiting FRPs. There have been a fair few good suggestions. It wouldn't be terrible if they were removed, but I like that it makes the factions play differently (I acknowledge the fact that there big issues with it).

You're not going to discourage blobbing by removing forward retreat, players will just take it in stride (har har!) and re-blob like 1-2 minutes later than usual- retreating squads run faster, after all.

Forward Retreat has its own share of drawbacks, first being placement, which itself requires securing the territory (required for OKW and UKF, but you can be very gutsy as USF), and second being securing it throughout the match, which demands micromanagement outside of blobbing.

If you want blobbing to be discouraged you can do something like implement upkeep cost when FRP is in effect, forcing players to toggle it only at the right moment to optimize economy. Or even just simply up the FRP upgrade cost. You know why you can't blob Sturmpioniers?
If you just remove FRP it won't do anything except maybe encourage it even more because FRP itself is expensive. Only Major doesn't require an upgrade for FRP but he's T4 unlock and a 3-man squad.
If that OKW blobber no longer has a 300 manpower sink, it's just going to another Volksgrenadier.

FRP itself gets in the way of blobbing. If USF is the worst of them all it's only because Major is mobile, comes regardless (ie not a side tech), has other abilities and can reinforce and heal next to ambulance. Think of all that micromanagement and manpower that can be spent in more blobbing if they simply didn't have it. It might discourage blobbing in massive maps, but most people apparently are 1v1 or 2v2, and large team game has never been the measuring stick for balance anyways.

I don't see FRP is the problem, and I think frustrated people are just pointing fingers looking for a reason convinced it is and if only it's gone.

For myself I love forward retreat, but I'm largely a big map player where having an FRP close to the middle and kept secure is a major tactical focus. I would accept an increase or even upkeep/ population cost for FRP upgrade. If you want to discourage blobbing there should be more or more expensive manpower choices for the player to sink into which accomplishes tactical decisions while also requiring less manpower for blobs. In an example of increasing 300 manpower to 400 manpower for FRP for OKW, it's still worth it but obviously makes both the investment into FRP as well as blobbing harder to achieve. You don't even need to do fancy things like removing medics or making it come later, all which demand deeper balance examination. If FRP is such an important tactical option, it should also cost; it already does at the tactical level but not so much at the economy side; ultimately 300 manpower isn't a lot for OKW.

Snip.

You're only considering the economy side. The big thing about frps is that it basically negates one of the big weaknesses of blobbing, which is the fact that once the blob retreats, the blobber really doesn't have a lot of field presence, if at all. With an frp, one can cut off a lot of time spent retreating and moving troops, and also provides a huge safety net since retreating practically isn't punished at all if you can be back on the field in 15-20 seconds. You even say yourself that you're a big fan of frps because having an frp close to the middle and secure is a major tactical focus. It enables people to just throw infantry at the enemy and takes out a lot of tactical depth because, again, retreating is a no-brainer when you have an frp. Taking out frps would make punishing blobs much easier and would add a lot more reason to play with a little thought. You say that blobbers will just take it in stride, and come back 1-2 minutes later. That's huuuuuge and may be one of the effective changes to punish blobs that you yourself stated. And really, you make keeping frps safe sound a lot harder than it really is, especially considering we're talking about okw (flakhq) and brits (sim city).

I agree with Loop. YOu have to consider the larger maps, where your FRP can save you maybe a minute of troop away time, but still be in a safe area.

Also to be considered, your troops are able to fight whilst re-enforcing, and use their abilities on the field. So even if you do chase the enemy back to the FRP and have an advantage, they still have a fighting chance to act as a threat. Either ranged units or simply as a presence in a map area. WHereas armies that retreat to base are well and truly out of the game for a time.

I agree with Loop. YOu have to consider the larger maps, where your FRP can save you maybe a minute of troop away time, but still be in a safe area.

Also to be considered, your troops are able to fight whilst re-enforcing, and use their abilities on the field. So even if you do chase the enemy back to the FRP and have an advantage, they still have a fighting chance to act as a threat. Either ranged units or simply as a presence in a map area. WHereas armies that retreat to base are well and truly out of the game for a time.

Actually one tends to have an advantage if an opponent chases them back to their frp because they can constantly reinforce as you stated (unless it's USF because the ambulance wil get demolished if it doesn't move).

A suggestion: Only 3 squads can retreat at the same time to a FRP so that blobbers only retreat a part of their troops to an FRP and the rest runs back to the base (and gamble that their best troops will end at the base). It punnishes the blobber but doens't go harsh on people that play across the whole map and retreat in diffrent instances.

You're only considering the economy side.

I know, because no one else was.

The biggest problem with talking about FRP is that its situation is different according to faction, people really need to stop talking like it's a simple one-dimensional issue, because it's not.

I know, because no one else was.

The biggest problem with talking about FRP is that its situation is different according to faction, people really need to stop talking like it's a simple one-dimensional issue, because it's not.

True but that doesn't address the rest of your post, and my points in OP and in the post you quoted still stand.

locking FRP behind later tiers so it comes later....

I disagree. yes, making it come later will make people be more cautious with it.

but I still believe that no one should have ability to hard retreat but still save time - that goes completely against hard retreat.

hard retreat gives you exceptional resistant to small arms in exchange for requiring you to go all the way back to your base. and I think the that particular system should always stay that way unaltered. well, it was altered, but change it back .

this phobia of removing FRP makes me wonder how we ever played SOV and OST... and how some people still play them.

#teamhalftrack

If Relic is too married to the idea to remove it outright, they might accept a middle ground like the Captain from vCoh where, (IIRC) only one squad could retreat to him at a time with a long-ass global cooldown so he couldn't be used to promote blobbing.

I'd like to point out that they did take out blizzards.

I'd like to point out that they did take out blizzards.

And reworked OKW...

I'd like to point out that they did take out blizzards.

They also removed maps from the rotation, which is basically the same. Blizzard affects every faction equally with the exception of OKW (SP and old Volks upgrade) so it's easier to remove in comparison. TBH if someone wants to mention things which had been removed we could mention the doctrinal ones:

-Irregulars
-Veterancy givers such as Elite Rifles or Elite Doctrine
-Direct resource convertion (Soviet Industry or Close air support)

There has also been the removal/tweak of vet abilities which were obnoxious (precision strike).


Anyway, i'm not saying it's impossible but that it's not likely.

What about just increasing the reinforcing time from FRP?

What about just increasing the reinforcing time from FRP?

What if you don't have major for your ambulance or upgrade for your medhq or forward position? And also, if you really significantly increased it, the only point of an frp would be convenience and an easy way to break suppression.

What if you don't have major for your ambulance or upgrade for your medhq or forward position? And also, if you really significantly increased it, the only point of an frp would be convenience and an easy way to break suppression.

Again, removing FRP requires to readjust factions using it, there are many ways to reduce the FRP impact which would not require to redesign half of the game.

1. if FRP is removed, we'd be removing it from 3 out of 5 factions.

2. - FRP affects teamgames way more
- post WFA factions are overperforming in this area for whatever other reasons + FRP
- so removing FRP can be treated as a normal nerf to these factions in teamgames, nothing more dramatic

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