Penals op

First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?

- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.

Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?

- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

Maxim nerfs are the only reason I make penals anymore.

look, i hate people that whine... but despite the nerfs to penals, penal blobs are still shockingly potent against OKW. i think this is the case for a few reasons...

1 - OKW lacks a solid suppression platform. a flak halftrack would work, except that penals just upgrade to PTRS and blob at it. MG34 is a joke... penals just run straight at it and win. every time.
2 - penals vet very quickly (still). they are pretty durable by default, but the RA bonuses make them frustrating to fight against with volks. fusiliers are ok once they're vetted, but you still end up bleeding a lot.
3 - the PTRS upgrade gives the SU player options, but also limits the OKW player's ability to counter the penal blob. also, by the time a luchs comes out, a good soviet player is already moving towards a suchka, which REALLY limits the luchs' utility.

i'm not saying they need to be nerfed into oblivion, but i think the trend towards super-low RA infantry units (penals, brit IS, etc.) is making infantry play inconsistent and encouraging blobbing.

Yep.

The Flak truck seems better now but it still is crazy easy to destroy. In team games, by the time you get a Flak truck penals are getting PTRS rifles and USF is getting zooks.

The MG34 is hands down the worst HMG in the game. Some MG's can be taken head on if you do it with vetted infantry blobs, but the MG34 can be taken head on by unvetted infantry (penals, rifles, inf sections) and wiped out fairly quickly. It's only legitimate use is when garrisoned and then it's slightly better.

Personally if I'm playing OKW and I want MG suppression I will be tempted to go with the doctrine that allows bunker building because then at least you get an MG42.

Not that it matters, but historically speaking it makes more sense for Ostheer to have the MG34 and OKW to have the MG42. Isn't OKW more about the late-war tech? Why do they get an ancient machine gun?

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

Imagine that. The issue with Penals and T1 always had to do with the Maxim and T2.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

And to think that all this started because people where not building Penals. So according to Top players we are back where we started.

Almost, at least penals do not force you from garrisons and out of cover when fighting super high long range DPS. But yeah Penals are equally bad against Ostheer and OKW infantry, its just that Ostheer has an actual suppression platform from the beginning of the match and it actually does its job. Simply, penals are more durable, and therefore when they drop a model their DPS proportion drops off significantly less against lesser durable squads. That and the fact that OKW has to go volks against soviets currently. It's like forcing soviets to play conscripts against OKW volks every game, you just lose at all stages of the game against them.

Simply, penals are more durable, and therefore when they drop a model their DPS proportion drops off significantly less against lesser durable squads.

This is not true if we are talking volks and grens. Both of these units have powerful AI weapon upgrades and so loose very little dps with first few models. At the same time penals have no AI upgrade so they always loose 1/6 of their dps and the upgrade they have makes it even worse becouse they always lose 1/4 of AI dps, as the weapon being prioritised is useless vs infantry.

penals are high reinforcement cost, high pop cap 9, high buy cost 300. and slow to get out on field. have no oh rah easy to pinn and lose manpower. lose long range to volks and gren which cost less. snare is easy to dodge. ptrs kills anti infintry ability. if u keep killing penals u drain enough mp to give u a good chance to win the game. penals were nerfed already last patch now they being talked about like there even strong. penals are fine

Ok so nerf DSHK's and Penals, what do the Soviets even have after that?

This is not true if we are talking volks and grens. Both of these units have powerful AI weapon upgrades and so loose very little dps with first few models. At the same time penals have no AI upgrade so they always loose 1/6 of their dps and the upgrade they have makes it even worse becouse they always lose 1/4 of AI dps, as the weapon being prioritised is useless vs infantry.

Yes my statement is pre upgrades which is where penals are at their strongest and cannot be effectivly countered by OKW. After StG upgrades you also have access to the MG34 which is another way of dealing with them. It's lackluster, but it's better than nothing. Also the decision to upgrade penals to PTRS is entirely the soviet players decision on a game by game basis. For the axis you need upgrades inorder to keep up with penals or other allied infantry should they purchase upgrades, and even in the lategame when USF and UKF are pulling out double BARs/brens axis backbone infantry don't go toe to toe with them, and they shouldn't considering they're cheaper to purchase.

This is not true if we are talking volks and grens. Both of these units have powerful AI weapon upgrades and so loose very little dps with first few models. At the same time penals have no AI upgrade so they always loose 1/6 of their dps and the upgrade they have makes it even worse becouse they always lose 1/4 of AI dps, as the weapon being prioritised is useless vs infantry.

'To the last man' means this is not quite true

Penal + For the Motherland is strong, even two HMG42 couldn't stop them.

buff cons 1st before u touch penals again. ty

ahhh... i expected this thread

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The question is why the previous meta needed a patch? Things were quite fine, or, at least not as bad a they are now . Couldn't say this, because it's not really a feedback, right?

nvm

Yes my statement is pre upgrades which is where penals are at their strongest and cannot be effectivly countered by OKW. After StG upgrades you also have access to the MG34 which is another way of dealing with them. It's lackluster, but it's better than nothing. Also the decision to upgrade penals to PTRS is entirely the soviet players decision on a game by game basis, for the axis you need upgrades inorder to keep up with penals or other allied infantry should they purchase upgrades, and even in the lategame when USF and UKF are pulling out double BARs/brens axis backbone infantry don't go toe to toe with them, and they shouldn't considering they're cheaper to purchase.

So true, but I find I have some success against Penals at vet 3+ with StG upgrade. But getting there is a big cluster. Probably they just need to be toned down a little; and in exchange make Cons useful again in some way.

It would be cool to see them synergise together some how.

First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?

- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.

Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?

- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

DisclaimerI think it is really very early in this patch and I would really wait at least how the GCS plays out as I wouldn't be surprised if we see more meta shifts. Mind you, the meta was different only a few weeks ago when the placement matches where done. Most people there actually used cons, some with T1 support, some with T2 and a healthy amount of Maxims. Also note that VonIvan rocked this current meta already in tpi4 which was with the WBP patch (so pre Maxim nerf). Point is, the meta is fresh and it's much too early for final conclusions.

That said, seems like people tend to build their opinion early and then are hard to convince otherwise later, so I might as well throw some number out now...

Ok, quick recap: When you check the meta during WPC when everybody was fretting about Penals OP, you'll find that there was almost a perfect split between T1 and T2 starts. Some people relied on Penals, but Cons were more prevalent and the most built Soviet infantry by a margin. And then there was the occasional attempted Maxim spam. So a lot of diversity, I thought. What was lacking in terms of diversity was that Shock Troops were kind of rare and that the Guard Motor doctrine was dominant.

Here is where we are with the GCS MR so far (again, this likely will change):

Replays for 23 games:

T1 start: 78% (mostly with Lend Lease or Defensive)
T2 start: 22% (Mostly with Guard Motor or Lend Lease)
T2 build at all: 35%



So, now Penals outnumber Conscripts by a margin, and Guards did happen as often as Shocks.

Here are the build orders. The color of the percentage indicates the winrate: From pink (0%), red (25%), dark yellow (50%), green (75%) to blue (100%). And again, at this point win percentages are mostly dominated by the skill gap, so high percentages mostly mean what the higher seeded player went for:



Further, the most picked commanders are Lend Lease and Defensive Tactics. And while Lend Lease was never completely off-meta, Defensive definitely was.

Now, what's common between the two: The DushKa, obviously. The M4C might be the icing on the cake, but Defensive definitely has its perks. Fun fact: In 4 out of the 9 Lend Lease games, T4 was build before the first M4C was called in. In all other games, at least T3 was built. So there was no "no-tech" cheese.

Not sure if nerfing the DushKa would help. IMO the problem is another one. In terms of AT, the Soviet player has to survive until he gets up his T3. At that point he can get out a t70 or a SU-76, depending on which vehicles is facing, or even tech to T4 when there are no significant vehicles.

Typically before you reach T3 you have to deal with light vehicles, either the 222, the Flaktrack or the Luchs. So, in that case you have multiple options:

• Upgrade Penals with PTRS (reducing their AI, but at least you profited up to that point from their performance).
  
• Build T2 => Zis-3 (advantage is that the Zis will remain very useful when medium hit the field, but it is a high investment and you have to live with conscripts plus support weapons for the early game).
  
• Use a Guards doctrine
  
• Some other (currently seemingly obscure) doctrinal solutions like M-42, Partizans...
  

Yet, seems like the first option currently is prefered. And the two DshKa doctrines provide a suppression platform that you would lack otherwise which helps to secure territory. So, my guess is that it wouldn't change much even if the DshKa would keep its current price and be nerfed to Maxim levels as long as it suppresses stuff.

It would be interesting to see what happens if these two Tactics were not available. Or if there would be a doctrine with Guards & DshKa...

Edit: Note, all of this says more about what the players perceive to be the best solution rather than what actually is the best solution.

Given how weak Maxim currently is, and how strong OKW infantry is, you need the best tools you can get.

The reasons why people pick the DSHK are:
- DSHK -is- OP (too much suppression, and too much damage at close-range)
- The Maxim is objectively weak due to certain parameters that we now know, but didn't know while doing GCS
- People have lack of confidence in the recently-changed Maxim
- DSHK & Lend-lease is the devil they know

DSHK stats mean that whatever loss of AI you would incur with upgrading to PTRS, you regain with an OP machinegun that operates similar to the Maxim.

People did test PTRS Penals & DSHK a lot, even during WBP. Although we knew DSHK & PTRS would become a really strong combo (but weren't allowed to change due to scope), what really tipped the balance way off was the early-faust change.

With early faust, M3A1 would strugle to be useful. From the matches that we've watched, this meant that you would lose map presence due to expensive penals & kubelwagen, and T1 openings were an uphill struggle against Vet5 complete dominance.

Without early faust, it's hunting season for the M3A1. Thus, flamer-scoutcars becomes the goto no-brainer opening. Now OKW really has to fight for its life in the early game. You already have Penals that are strong in the early game. Moreover, you need to put some resources aside to survive a deadly flamer-car rush.

This is not where we wanted to take balance (i.e., back to abuse meta). However, we were only allowed to make a binary decision (early faust vs late faust).

Hopefully things will improve later on. For instance, people might not be playing strategies to their full potential, yet; that goes for both Soviets and OKW that have to counter Soviets.

Given how weak Maxim currently is, and how strong OKW infantry is, you need the best tools you can get.
....

No matter how you want to look at it, Penals is the strongest infantry for its time frame. And that creates a allot of issues.

Nerf Penal to EFA levels Nerf VG to EFA levels and things will be better (and riflemen and tommies).

Now it's gonna be like 'maxim op' / 'penals op' thread swap after each patch? You hear the community, continue to nerf one next to another. Maybe if Relic allows you to touch only some things it doesn't mean you should touch it at any cost just because you allowed to?

And if you aren't allowed to touch it, don't try to indirectly touch it by adjusting everything around it you can.