First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?
- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.
Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?
- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.
After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.
DisclaimerI think it is really very early in this patch and I would really wait at least how the GCS plays out as I wouldn't be surprised if we see more meta shifts. Mind you, the meta was different only a few weeks ago when the placement matches where done. Most people there actually used cons, some with T1 support, some with T2 and a healthy amount of Maxims. Also note that VonIvan rocked this current meta already in tpi4 which was with the WBP patch (so pre Maxim nerf). Point is, the meta is fresh and it's much too early for final conclusions.
That said, seems like people tend to build their opinion early and then are hard to convince otherwise later, so I might as well throw some number out now...
Ok, quick recap: When you check the meta
during WPC when everybody was fretting about Penals OP, you'll find that there was almost a perfect split between T1 and T2 starts. Some people relied on Penals, but Cons were more prevalent and the most built Soviet infantry by a margin. And then there was the occasional attempted Maxim spam. So a lot of diversity, I thought. What was lacking in terms of diversity was that Shock Troops were kind of rare and that the Guard Motor doctrine was dominant.
Here is where we are with the GCS MR so far (again, this likely will change):
Replays for 23 games:
T1 start: 78% (mostly with Lend Lease or Defensive)
T2 start: 22% (Mostly with Guard Motor or Lend Lease)
T2 build at all: 35%
unit | total | games | of |
| Penal Battalion |
| | | |
| Combat Engineers |
| | | |
| Conscripts |
| | | |
| DShK 38 Heavy Machine Gun |
| | | |
| ZiS-3 |
| | | |
| M1910 Maxim |
| | | |
| Scout Sniper |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| PM-41 82mm Mortar |
| | | |
| Guards Rifle Infantry |
| | | |
| Shock Troops |
| | | |
| HM-38 120mm Mortar |
| | | |
| Partisan Tank Hunters |
| | | |
| M-42 45mm AT Gun |
| | | |
|
So, now Penals outnumber Conscripts by a margin, and Guards did happen as often as Shocks.
Here are the build orders. The color of the percentage indicates the winrate: From pink (0%), red (25%), dark yellow (50%), green (75%) to blue (100%). And again, at this point win percentages are mostly dominated by the skill gap, so high percentages mostly mean what the higher seeded player went for:
1st unit | 2nd unit | 3rd unit | 4th unit | 5th unit |
| 14 |
|
| 12 |
|
| 8 |
|
| 3 |
|
| 2 | | 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 | | 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 | | 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 8 |
|
| 7 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 3 |
|
| 3 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
Further, the most picked commanders are Lend Lease and Defensive Tactics. And while Lend Lease was never completely off-meta, Defensive definitely was.
Now, what's common between the two: The DushKa, obviously. The M4C might be the icing on the cake, but Defensive definitely has its perks. Fun fact: In 4 out of the 9 Lend Lease games, T4 was build before the first M4C was called in. In all other games, at least T3 was built. So there was no "no-tech" cheese.
Not sure if nerfing the DushKa would help. IMO the problem is another one. In terms of AT, the Soviet player has to survive until he gets up his T3. At that point he can get out a t70 or a SU-76, depending on which vehicles is facing, or even tech to T4 when there are no significant vehicles.
Typically before you reach T3 you have to deal with light vehicles, either the 222, the Flaktrack or the Luchs. So, in that case you have multiple options:
- Upgrade Penals with PTRS (reducing their AI, but at least you profited up to that point from their performance).
- Build T2 => Zis-3 (advantage is that the Zis will remain very useful when medium hit the field, but it is a high investment and you have to live with conscripts plus support weapons for the early game).
- Use a Guards doctrine
- Some other (currently seemingly obscure) doctrinal solutions like M-42, Partizans...
Yet, seems like the first option currently is prefered. And the two DshKa doctrines provide a suppression platform that you would lack otherwise which helps to secure territory. So, my guess is that it wouldn't change much even if the DshKa would keep its current price and be nerfed to Maxim levels as long as it suppresses stuff.
It would be interesting to see what happens if these two Tactics were not available. Or if there would be a doctrine with Guards & DshKa...
Edit: Note, all of this says more about what the players
perceive to be the best solution rather than what actually
is the best solution.