Teamgame dominant meta

If you are losing to OKW infantry in lategame, may I suggest:

• Rocket artillery
  
• double-upgraded infantry
  
• off-map artillery
  
• on-map artillery
  
• snipers + micro (hard, i know)
  
• Medium tanks (used defensively)
  
• strafing runs
  
• shock troops + for the motherland
  
• Rangers + use of truesight
  
• learning to play
  
  

I don't think Red Terror loses to OKW infantry in lategame

I think it is fine that Axis have excellent late-game vehicle synergy. That is not actually the issue.

Oh, I think it is quite the problem because it is unbeatable, especially on maps that are built in straight lanes.

The issue is that they have no real other alternative to that style of play. Thus, nerfing one or both halves of that synergy only really serves to nerf the faction as a whole, creating imbalance.

We are talking about synergies of doctrinal vehicles with stock vehicles. People choose what's the easiest to play with, not what they are 'forced' to use. If axis were forced into those doctrines, how come they are not used in 1v1 and still have superior win rates?

Allied, likewise, don't really opt for armor because their heavy tanks are too weak comparatively (IS-2s, KV-2s, and especially KV-1s are very rare sights on the battlefield these days). As I said above, the better course is to create viable alternatives to these dominant playstyles, rather than nerf them directly. I think doing so will simply create frustrating experiences for players, particularly those on the Axis side.

As I said, People choose the easiest path to victory. Just buffing units will cause nothing but more problems.

Oh, I think it is quite the problem because it is unbeatable, especially on maps that are built in straight lanes.

The changes to Allied heavy tanks I talked about should address many of those instances. But it sounds like what you're saying here is that the issue is more about maps, not unit stats. So, in other words, you agree that the proposed changes don't actually resolve the core issue

We are talking about synergies of doctrinal vehicles with stock vehicles. People choose what's the easiest to play with, not what they are 'forced' to use. If axis were forced into those doctrines, how come they are not used in 1v1 and still have superior win rates?

I think we are talking about the same thing here, but coming at it from different perspectives. OK--so suppose you make Axis vehicles "harder" to play with (by nerfing them). Will that actually change how Axis plays? Probably not, because even with the nerfs, there's doesn't seem to be anything in the Axis repitoire that's better (or "easier" to play with, to use your words) than vehicle synergy. The vehicle synergy will just be worse--but the GOAL of Mr. Smith's patch proposal is not to make Axis play more frustrating, it's to make Axis play differently. These changes won't actually accomplish that. That's my point. That's why a better solution is buffing alternatives to Axis vehicle synergy.

As I said, People choose the easiest path to victory. Just buffing units will cause nothing but more problems.

As I said, People choose the most dominant playstyle for their faction. Just nerfing units will cause nothing but more problems. Gee, it really sounds like the problem here isn't unit stats at all...

I think too many people are trying to get an edge in their preferred playstyle, game mode, and/or faction, and not enough people are looking at this game comprehensively.

I don't think many people even understand what a meta game is in the first place, let alone what state coh2 meta is in.

A general good approach to balance is: If you use the same unit over and over again - nerf it.

Ever thought that if a certain unit is being used over and over again, MAYBE it's because it's so extremely crucial to have a chance at winning?
Examples:
-allied infantry has a hard time killing elite axis infantry (OKW that is) so they get artillery.
-have problems dealing with massed allied TDs to they get elephant/jagd.

Instead of saying "they use these things all the time therefore nerf it", consider the possibility they NEED to use it because without it they don't stand a chance.

Perhaps when a certain faction uses a certain unit over and over again it means they have no other adequate counter to an enemy unit.
Example:
-ostheer has no TD with same range as allied TDs so they get elephant.
-Allies have no infantry that can stand up to vet5 volks or obers so they use indirect fire instead.

I agree your method works for the most part, but in some cases (as shown above) it's the other way around.

I think too many people are trying to get an edge in their preferred playstyle, game mode, and/or faction, and not enough people are looking at this game comprehensively.

I don't think many people even understand what a meta game is in the first place, let alone what state coh2 meta is in.

Two things create meta.
1. Units that force a certain playstyle from your opponent (ex. KT forces the enemy to build TDs since it wipes everything else, comet rolled over everything and forced enemy into Panthers)

2. Units that are chosen due to 1. (Ex. Enemy has masses of TDs and indirect fire and the only way I can deal with them (as ostheer) is by using an elephant. Enemy has loads of terminator infantry, therefore I'll need indirect fire to counter blob.

In my opinion, the units in the first category should be considered for nerfs, and the units in the second category should either be left alone, buffed, or created (if a certain faction has no counter to a certain type 1 unit).

Im not saying type two units shouldn't ever be nerfed, or type 1 buffed, I'm just saying this is the order of approach to changes that should be considered.

This means that if a faction is struggling against a type 2 unit, they should be able to deal with it by changing their play style and army builds which would negate it's usefulness. This is how it's done in 1s and 2s but this starts to fall apart in 4s since you will be facing counters to every army build.

The solution to this problem is to buff the type 2 units slightly and nerf the type 1 units.

Summary:
All in all , counters to type 1 units (aka type 2 units) SHOULD NOT BE NERFED because then you won't have an answer to enemy army composition. Type 1 units should be held in check by making sure they have a weaknesses and reliable counters.

I hope this makes sense.

I allude to this above, but I think it is fine that Axis have excellent late-game vehicle synergy. That is not actually the issue. The issue is that they have no real other alternative to that style of play. Thus, nerfing one or both halves of that synergy only really serves to nerf the faction as a whole, creating imbalance. Allied, likewise, don't really opt for armor because their heavy tanks are too weak comparatively (IS-2s, KV-2s, and especially KV-1s are very rare sights on the battlefield these days). As I said above, the better course is to create viable alternatives to these dominant playstyles, rather than nerf them directly. I think doing so will simply create frustrating experiences for players, particularly those on the Axis side.

EDIT: Example--I know, for sure, that if peoples' Jagdtiger 120 mm cannons fail to destroy an M20 scout car, they will be completely livid. Talk about unrealistic/breaking immersion!

if axis fanboys get frustrated so wat im sure allies players been frustrated for years of allied nerfs. just adjust

Personally I think what people need to do is accept that 4v4 will never be balanced the way 1v1 is. How this game works with its mechanics is simply too complicated to make even 4v4. Both sides have OP units and OP strategies.

Add that with there are so many noob and good teams. And even more noob randoms that even when balanced it's a steamed rolled game.

The only thing I can possibly see in balancing the game would be to have a actual 3v3/4v4 balance team that manually tweaks units for those game modes. So units won't be affected for smaller game modes. There will always be useless units in one mode but not the other. That includes strategies and players alike.

/thread

Personally I think what people need to do is accept that 4v4 will never be balanced the way 1v1 is. How this game works with its mechanics is simply too complicated to make even 4v4. Both sides have OP units and OP strategies.

Add that with there are so many noob and good teams. And even more noob randoms that even when balanced it's a steamed rolled game.

The only thing I can possibly see in balancing the game would be to have a actual 3v3/4v4 balance team that manually tweaks units for those game modes. So units won't be affected for smaller game modes. There will always be useless units in one mode but not the other. That includes strategies and players alike.

/thread

You have a point,skill matter the most.

Still, some imbalances are just too obvious.

Also, the team format need to be a bit more balanced so they are more fun for everyone.

Not a perfect balance, enough balanced to be fun.

To add to conversation I want to propose some potential tier reworks, because I believe the root of most problems are related to how specific factions tiers are structured. Here are my propositions.

Other than that here's my opinion on some problems with factions:

Ostheerostheer
- g43 blobs get both stun nades and rifle nades making the unit effective at all ranges (solution: make rifle nades and stun nades negate themselves, so having g43 leaves you with stun nades only)
- stun nades are too effecient they both deal dmg and stun which combined with g43 is too lethal (my solution either stun or dmg not both)
- stuka bombing is too effecient vs soviet howitzers and infantry (solution: make it kill crew of stationary howitzer but not the hovie itself, just damage it, also lower its AOE range vs infantry and make it a bit less anti-infantry effective)
- elephant is too effecient (solution decrease cost in both mp and fuel to make it less of an investment decrease its dmg so it cant 2 shot heavy tanks etc., implement stationary mode where with longer range and faster rotation speed and mobile mode with lower range and lower rotation speed but increase speed acceleration for faster repositioning, and please keep it in line with other units of the same class like jagdtiger, isu-152, make them have same range etc.)
- german trenches should be accesible fonly for germans
- pak43 needs to be more consistent to use, its too easy to counter or decrew (propose: making it impossible to decrew, only abandoned like brit emplacements)
- hulls down underperforming (need to be easier to use)
- panzer tactician is too effecient (should cost more muni, have higher cooldown)
- reconaissancce overflight is too effecient in comparison to allied recon getting shot down constantly (my solution, lower cost and lower its duration time by half)
- tactical movement ability is not cost effective enough (should be cheaper)
- stormtroopers call in unprepared, upgrades on them are bit too expensive (solution: make stormtroopers call in with one stg already and one slot open for a weapon of choosing)
- S-mines spam overperforming (my solution increase thier price to 90, increase laying time)


OKWokw
- first and foremost I propose rebuilding okw tiers

- sturmpios early game rush + building hopping makes okw open on some maps impossible to counter (my solution make okw start with kubel since everyone is basically building that unit second anyways)
- sturmpios have too many tasks to perform and yet they are expensive and easy to lose late game (solution: make them cheaper so you can produce more of them but at the same time lower their dmg, make them more durable late game)
- double kubel opens on open maps with low cover makes it hard to counter because they are too durable and get repaired too fast (solution: make kubels less tanky and give them stealth when out of combat and when not capping points, that way kubel stays in its place and is able to harass the map thoughout the game, give more durability with vet)
- isg autofire too effective in teamgames, (make barrage more effective and nerf autoattacks)
- aa halftruck is impossible to kill because of smoke spam (solution make the cooldown higher so it can be punished for bad positioning)
- volks incediary nades overperform, because of no upgrade needed, fast throw animation and they explode on impact making it hard to dodge (solution: either make their animation slower/easier to dodge, or make impact dmg lower, or the best way would be implementing an upgrade in t0 unlocked after building t1 or t2 for them to be used)
- since okw atg range is so low (it would be best to increase their performance by increasing their rotation speed slightly)
- lufftwaffe heavy fortifications flak battery is underperforming big time, too easy to decrew or be destroyed (make it similar to brit encampments, increase its cost a bit, but make it more durable, impossible to decrew only abandoned if low hp and give ability similar to brit brace)
- sturm offizier risky to build because of the forced retreat for surrounding squads (my solution, remove forced retreat)
- jagdpanzer overperformig same as elephant (lower cost in mp and fuel, but at the same time lower its stats, implement stationary fast rotation mode with longer range and mobile mode with shorter range but better acceleration, twime switching between modes shoulb be significant)
- HEAT shells are overpriced and underused (lower the price)
- sturmtiger too effecient vs infantry and tanks alike (make it exclusive with kt, make it less effective vs either tanks or infantry)
- s-mines (same as ost)
- pak43 (same as ost)
- lufftwaffe airborne assault underperforming hard (my solution make it drop 2 fallschimjeagers, but the strafe only suppresses and deals no dmg, on top of that adjust the price, split it into mp and muni so its not too expensive to use, but also increase its cooldown so its not spammable)
- jaeger infantry underperforming (propose making them more resilient so they can actually gain veterancy)
- spec ops artillery flares are extremely overperforming because of the low cost, high reliablity and no counterplay (proposition 1 change it to standard reconaissance plane, proposition 2 instead of making it global make it a ranged ability dependend on trucks positions and lower its duration time on top of that)

USFusf
- usf tiers are really poorly designed making their games hit or miss instead of stable performance, cpt is a go to tier in teamgames and lt is too risky, I propose tier rework for usf too (move atg to t1, move aa to t2, move mortar to t1, move m20 to t2, readjust lt and cpt prices, cpt should cost less fuel and much more mp instead so m20 come out fast and have an impact, lt should cost a bit more fuel and much less mp, remake aa into transport veihicle with aa upgrade)

- lt is overperforming (solution make bar an upgrade buy for him)
- m20 being underused in teamgames (my solution rework tiers)
- major is great because of the potenatial of bringing in forward return point, but this way all other major abilites are udnerused (my proposition is to rework captain, take away major return point ability and give it to the captain, take away captain bazooka instead, this will make major use more other major abilities, this way usf and okw will get foward return points at approximately the same time)
- overall t3 for usf comes very late unless you are very ahead so it makes sherman an even worse choice
- sherman is a useless tank because it has no specific purpose (proposition, make it less effective vs infantry, make it much more durable, with same fire power, make sherman a meat shield tank with higher armor and hp)
- M8A1 accuracy is too high, its too effective in sniping infantry (lower accuracy)
- pathfinders come on the battlefield too late (lower cp from 1 to 0 but increase call in cooldown to match rifleman production speed; also to prevent double bar cheese restrict pathfinders to 1 slot only)
- paradrop 50cal without a crew is useless during a battle and thats what paradropping is meant for (solution paradrop 50cal with a crew, adjust mp, increase cooldwon between so its not spammable)
- paradrop atg (same as 50cal, add crew and adjust mp, increase cooldwon between so its not spammable)
- paratroopers tactical assault too effective in wiping squads (make it deal less dmg, but also remove increased dmg taken, leave slow)
- p-47 ineffecient (since usf is already muni hungry decrease price)
- 240 howitzer barrage ability is underused because of its cost, while at the same time its very powerful (to make it more useable decrease its power and lower price)
- wolverine was overperforming (dont know how is it after the patch)
- rifleman field defenses mines laying takes too much time (decrease the time of laying mines to make on par with other factions)
- off map smoke barrage too cheap (increase price slightly)
- pershing cp too high, stats are basically the same as panther but its slightly better, but it takes 13 cp points same as tiger (solution: lower cp from 13 to 11 - for refference command panther is 10 and tiger 13)
- m21 mortar halftrack is underused, its a bit too expensive and has no nische (make it a support teams hunter, more accurate normal and special barrages)
- priest howitzer decrewing abuse (basically all popcap lowering through decrewing should be fixed)
- mechanized company underused:
- m3 halftruck assault group change assault engineers to rangers in that ability and adjust mp) might make that commander more playable
- recon support underused:
- i&r pathfinders add 1 model to make 4 man squads,
- m8 greyhound make lower cp to 2 instead of 3 (would be on par with t1) make its canister shot more effective at killing infantry,
- airdropped combat group randomness of what you get is too unreliable which makes it a risky and very high cost investment because you basically need to have a float of mp to be able to use it, since you will be having lots of fuel I propose lower mp cost and add cost in fuel, also make one squad random weapons but second squad vanilla so the player can decide what he needs, also make atg crewed)
- rifle company has no pressure early-midgame, basically 2 abilities are completely useless, this commander needs a rework to gain more early-midgame pressure so usf can survive to easy eights
- calliope is too hard to kill compared to other artillery units (make it less tanky)
- also usf RE should get a flamer upgrade since they have practically no utility throughout most of the game

BRITSukf
- tommy sections early dmg is too high (some kind of nerf needed)
- mortar pits are overperforming (proposition decrease attack speed)
- sapper units underperforming on heavy sapper upgrade (lower their damage, remove slow and decrease armor, make it into assault unit with good short-mid range dmg)
- croc flame overperforming
- 17 pounder underused (lower its dps and attack speed but leave penetration and durability, lower its cost)
- commando regiment commando glider makes it impossible for commandos in this doctrine to be stealth (proposition either make them paratroop or jump out of a building instead of glider landing)
- royal artillery underused:
- early warning ability lower cp from 3 to 2, lower muni cost slightly but increase cooldown so its not spammable,
- concentration barrage lower cp from 4 to 3,
- valentine tank lower cp from 6 to 5 (on par with puma) since its utility comes mainly from coordination with sextons
- sextons underperforming (solution change veterancy, lvl 1 - +13% range + creeping barrage, lvl 2 and 3 - +13% range and barrage recharge -20% - overall it will be a small buff of 9% more range in total but more smoothly added
- permieter overwatch overperforming dramatically (lower cost, make it one specific friendly territory, lower cooldown between barrages and increase cooldown of ability so it cant be spammable)
- royal engineer underperforming:
- stand fast ability ineffecient (either make it one long repair with ability to overrepair emplacements (add hp on top what they have) but with long cooldown, or a spammable low ammount hp repair with lower cost;
- anti building flame mortar is unreliable because of its how situational it is (propose lower cp from 8 to 7 or 6);
- avre is underperfoming because its neither the dmg monster like sturmtiger or it doesnt shoot fast enough (solution increase avre basic range around +20%)
- special weapons regiment - tank hunter infantry underused because it comes a bit too late (proposing lowering cp from 2 to 1)
- tactical support regiment underused - forward observation post is too situational and comes too late in to the game (lower cp from 10 to 6 and tune down its abilities and cost)

Sovietssoviets
- maxim underperforming in its new role (solution increase suppresion slightly)
- cons molotov underperforming (molotov throw speed should be on par with other nade abilities)
- cons need some kind of scaling into late game to match other main infantry
- t34 fuel cost is too low (should be increased slightly)
- t70 lost its nische as infantry killer and its fuel cost doesnt represent its current strength (lower fuel cost, increase mp cost)
- katyusha durability doesnt match other factions durability making it too easy to dive or even kill by elite infantry like fallschimjaegers (increase durability to match stuka)
- soviet shock troops underused ( decrease their armor from 2 to 1,5 and durability and change weapon dps profile from short to short-mid range)
- doctrinal conscript assault package underused (proposition 1 - change weapon profile from short to short-mid or proposition 2 instead of giving ppsh give them svt and make cons in con oriented doctrines have more mid-late range weapon profile and better late game scaling also synergising better with hit the dirt abilities)
- advanced warface tac undersused:
- solution change radio intercept with some early pressure ability,
- sturmovik attack isnt as effective as cp 12 sturmovik overflight attack so recommend lowering cp from 10 to 8)
- kv 8 flame dmg seems still too high
- ml20 howitzer barrage takes too long making it too hard to repair okw buildings in time before the next salvo (solution decrease cooldown between each salvo a bit to make the barrage shorter)
- isu 152 underperforming - (make it on par with other heavy tank destroyers)
- tank hunter tactics rpg-40 anti tank grenade assault seems redundant with anti tank grenade upgrade from hq, more over ability itself constantly misses (solution change ability for something more anti-infantry because with this doc soviets lack the ability to deal with infantry at all)
- m42 ATG dramatically underperforming (solution increase penetration but leave low damage so they can actually hurt medium tanks and not become useless instantly)

To add to conversation I want to propose some potential tier reworks, because I believe the root of most problems are related to how specific factions tiers are structured. Here are my propositions.

Other than that here's my opinion on some problems with factions:

Ostheerostheer
- g43 blobs get both stun nades and rifle nades making the unit effective at all ranges (solution: make rifle nades and stun nades negate themselves, so having g43 leaves you with stun nades only)
- stun nades are too effecient they both deal dmg and stun which combined with g43 is too lethal (my solution either stun or dmg not both)
- stuka bombing is too effecient vs soviet howitzers and infantry (solution: make it kill crew of stationary howitzer but not the hovie itself, just damage it, also lower its AOE range vs infantry and make it a bit less anti-infantry effective)
- elephant is too effecient (solution decrease cost in both mp and fuel to make it less of an investment decrease its dmg so it cant 2 shot heavy tanks etc., implement stationary mode where with longer range and faster rotation speed and mobile mode with lower range and lower rotation speed but increase speed acceleration for faster repositioning, and please keep it in line with other units of the same class like jagdp, isu-152, make them have same range etc.)
- german trenches should be accesible fonly for germans
- pak43 needs to be more consistent to use, its too easy to counter or decrew (propose: making it impossible to decrew, only abandoned like brit emplacements)
- hulls down underperforming (need to be easier to use)
- panzer tactician is too effecient (should cost more muni, have higher cooldown)
- reconaissancce overflight is too effecient in comparison to allied recon getting shot down constantly (my solution, lower cost and lower its duration time by half)
- tactical movement ability is not cost effective enough (should be cheaper)
- stormtroopers call in unprepared, upgrades on them are bit too expensive (solution: make stormtroopers call in with one stg already and one slot open for a weapon of choosing)
- S-mines spam overperforming (my solution increase thier price to 90, increase laying time)


OKWokw
- first and foremost I propose rebuilding okw tiers

- sturmpios early game rush + building hopping makes okw open on some maps impossible to counter (my solution make okw start with kubel since everyone is basically building that unit second anyways)
- sturmpios have too many tasks to perform so make them cheaper so we can have more of them, (lower their dmg, make them more resiliant so you can have more of them)
- double kubel opens on open maps with low cover makes it hard to counter because they are too resilient and get repaired too easily (my solution, make kubels less tanky and give them stealth when out of combat and when not capping points, that way kubel stays in its place and is able to harass the map thoughout the game, give more resiliance with vet)
- isg autofire too effective in teamgames, (make barrage more effective and nerf autoattacks)
- aa halftruck is impossible to kill because of smoke spam (solution make the cooldown higher so it can be punished for bad positioning)
- volks incediary nades overperform, no upgrade is needed, throw animation is fast and they explode making it hardest to dodge (my solution either make their animation slower/easier to dodge, or make impact dmg lower, or the best way would be implementing an upgrade in t1 for them to be used)
- since okw atg range is so low (it would be best to increase their performance by increasing their rotation speed spightly)
- lufftwaffe heavy fortifications aa battery is underperforming big time, too easy to decrew or be destroyed (make it similar to brit encampments, increase its cost a bit, but make it more resilient, impossible to decrew only abandoned if low hp and give ability similar to brit brace)
- sturm offizier risky to build because of the forces retreat if focus fired (my solution, remove forced retreat)
- jagdpanzer overperformig same as elefant (lower cost in mp and fuel, but at the same time lower its stats, implement stationary fast rotation mode with longer range and mobile mode with shorter range but better acceleration, twime switching between modes shoulb be significant)
- HEAT shells are overpriced and underused (lower the price
- sturmtiger too effecient vs infantry and tanks alike (make it exclusive with kt, make it less effective vs either tanks or infantry)
- s-mines (same as ost)
- pak43 (same as ost)
- lufftwaffe airborne assault underperforming hard (my solution make it drop 2 fallschimjeagers, but the strafe only suppresses and deals no dmg, on top of that adjust the price, split it into mp and muni so its not too expensive to use, but also increase its cooldown so its not spammable)
- jaeger infantry underperforming (propose making them more resilient so they can actually gain veterancy)
- spec ops artillery flares are extremely overperforming because of the low cost, high reliablity and no counterplay (proposition 1 change it to standard reconaissance plane, proposition 2 instead of making it global make it a ranged ability dependend on truck position and lower its duration time on top of that)

USFusf
- usf tiers are really poorly designed making their games hit or miss instead of stable performance, cpt is a go to tier in teamgames and lt is too risky, I propose tier rework for usf too (move atg to t1, move aa to t2, move mortar to t1, move m20 to t2, readjust lt and cpt prices, cpt should cost less fuel and much more more mp so m20 can have an impact, lt should cost a bit more fuel and much less mp, remake aa into transport veihicle with potential aa upgrade)

- lt is overperforming (solution make bar an upgrade buy for him)
- m20 being underused in teamgames (my solution rework tiers)
- major is great because of the potenatial of bringing in forward return point, but this way all other major abilites are udnerused (my proposition is to rework captain, take away major return point ability and give it to the captain, take away captain bazooka instead, this will make major use more other major abilities, this way usf and okw will get foward return points at approximately the same time)
- overall t3 for usf comes very late unless you are very ahead so it makes sherman an even worse choice
- sherman is a useless tank because it has no specific purpose (proposition, make it less effective vs infantry, make it much more resilient, with same fire power, make sherman a meat shield tank)
- M8A1 accuracy is too high, its too effective (lower accuracy)
- pathfinders come on the battlefield too late (lower cp from 1 to 0 but increase cooldown between them so you cant spam them faster than rifles; also to prevent double bar cheese restrict pathfinders to 1 slot only)
- paradrop 50cal without a crew is useless during a battle and thats what paradropping is meant for (solution paradrop 50cal with a crew, adjust mp, increase cooldwon between so its not spammable)
- paradrop atg (same as 50cal, add crew and adjust mp, increase cooldwon between so its not spammable)
- paratroopers tactical assault too effective (make it deal less dmg, but also remove increased dmg taken)
- p-47 ineffecient (since usf is already muni hungry decrease price)
- 240 howitzer barrage ability is underused because of its cost, while at the same time its very powerful (to make it more useable decrease its power and lower price)
- wolverine was overperforming (dont know how is it after the patch)
- rifleman field defenses mines laying takes too much time (decrease the time of laying mines to make on par with other factions)
- off map smoke barrage too cheap (increase price slightly)
- pershing cp too high, stats are basically the same as panther but its slightly better, but it takes 13 cp points like in case of tiger (lower cp from 13 to 11 - for refference command panther is 10 and tiger 13)
- m21 mortar halftrack is underused, its a bit too expensive and has no nische (make it a support teams hunter, more accurate barrage and special barrages)
- priest howitzer decrewing abuse (basically all popcap lowering through decrewing should be fixed)
- mechanized company underused (m3 halftruck assault group change assault engineers to rangers in that ability and adjust mp) might make that commander more playable
- recon support underused (i&r pathfinders add 1 model to make 4 man squads, m8 greyhound make lower cp to 2 instead of 3 (would be on par with t1) make its canister shot more effective at killing infantry, airdropped combat group randomness of what you get is too unreliable which makes it a risky and very high cost investment because you basically need to have a float of mp to be able to use it, since you will be having lots of fuel I propose lower mp cost and add cost in fue, also make one squad random weapons but second squad vanilla so the player can decide what he needs, also make atg crewed)
- rifle company has no pressure early-midgame, basically 2 abilities are completely useless, this commander needs a rework to gain more early-midgame pressure so usf can survive to easy eights
- calliope is too hard to kill compared to other artillery units (make it less tanky)

BRITSukf
- tommy sections early dmg is too high (some kind of nerf needed)
- mortar pits are overperforming (proposition decrease attack speed)
- sapper units underperforming on heavy sapper upgrade (lower their damage, remove slow and decrease armor, make it into assault unit)
- croc flame overperforming
- 17 pounder underused (lower its dps and attack speed but leave penetration and durability, lower its cost)
- commando regiment commando glider makes it impossible for commandos in this doctrine to be stealth (proposition either make them paratroop or jump out of a building instead of glider landing)
- royal artillery underused (early warning ability lower cp from 3 to 2, lower muni cost slightly but increase cooldown so its not spammable, concentration barrage lower cp from 4 to 3, valentine tank lower cp from 6 to 5 (on par with puma) since its utility comes mainly from coordination with sextons
- sextons underperforming (solution change veterancy, lvl 1 - +13% range + creeping barrage, lvl 2 and 3 - +13% range and barrage recharge -20% - overall it will be a small buff of 9% more range in total but more smoothly added
- permieter overwatch overperforming dramatically (lower cost, make it one specific friendly territory, lower cooldown between barrages and increase cooldown of ability so it cant be spammable)
- royal engineer underperforming - stand fast ability ineffecient (either make it one long repair with ability to overrepair emplacements (add hp on top what they have) but with long cooldown, or a spammable low ammount hp repair with lower cost; anti building flame mortar is unreliable because of its how situational it is (propose lower cp from 8 to 7 or 6); avre is underperfoming because its neither the dmg monster like sturmtiger or it doesnt shoot fast enough (solution increase avre basic range around +20%)
- special weapons regiment - tank hunter infantry underused because it comes a bit too late (proposing lowering cp from 2 to 1)
- tactical support regiment underused - forward observation post is too situational and comes too late in to the game (lower cp from 10 to 6 and tune down its abilities and cost)

Sovietssoviets
- maxim underperforming in its new role (solution increase suppresion slightly)
- cons molotov underperforming (molotov throw speed should be on par with other nade abilities)
- cons need some kind of scaling into late game to match other main infantry
- t34 fuel cost is too low (should be increased slightly)
- t70 lost its nische as infantry killer and its fuel cost doesnt represent its current strength (lower fuel cost, increase mp cost)
- katyusha durability doesnt match other factions durability making it too easy to dive or even kill by elite infantry like fallschimjaegers (increase durability to match stuka)
- soviet shock troops underused ( decrease their armor from 2 to 1,5 and durability and increase weapon dps from short to short-mid range)
- doctrinal conscript assault package underused (proposition 1 - change weapon profile from short to short-mid or proposition 2 change instead of giving ppsh give them svt and making cons in con oriented doctrines have more mid-late range weapon profile and better late game scaling also synergising better with hit the dirt abilities)
- advanced warface tac undersused (solution change radio intercept with some early pressure ability, sturmovig attack isnt as effective as cp 12 sturmovig overflight attack so recommend lowering cp from 10 to 8)
- kv 8 flame dmg stil a bit too much but im not sure
- ml20 howitzer shoots too long making it too hard to repair okw buildings in time before the next salvo (solution decrease cooldown between salvos a bit)
- isu 152 underperforming - (make it on par with other heavy tank destroyers)
- tank hunter tactics rpg-40 anti tank grenade assault seems redundant with ant tank grenade upgrade from hq, more over ability itself constantly misses (solution change ability for something more anti-infantry because with this doc soviets lack the ability to deal with infantry at all)
- m42 at guns dramatically underperforming (solution increase penetration but leave low damage so they can actually hurt medium tanks)

I'would like to see your suggestions becoming a tuning patch. Look nice on paper...

Maybe a bit too much for the scope...dunno.
Seem pretty fair for all factions.

In any case great work.

Thanks !

Show Spoiler

Long post. Anyways just gonna point out some flaws in this design. Keep in mind I didn't read all of it and my attention to detail isn't super high atm, but this is what I noticed.

• OKW
  
• Probably best to start with a volks squad, kubels are map dependant and can die easily because of RNG. Its tank effect is due to the 4 armor,but becauase it's rng dependant you can suffer a lot of damage very quickly which means your first unit regardless of choice is probably going to die in 90% of games anyways.
  
• Unsure where the JP4 is overperforming. It's 135 fuel incomparison to the SU85 and Firefly, 130F and 155F respectivly. It has better RoF at the cost of penetration. Its range is the same, can cloak with vet but cannot sight for itself like the SU85 or upgrade with commander/tulips like the FF. Sounds balanced to me.
  
• Not sure why they're under used. +30% penetration and damage is fantastic against the right targets. That all but guarantees panther frontal pen against all allied tanks except the IS-2. OKW tends to float munitions once StGs are upgraded. Most other sinks are mines, grenades and obers/callin infantry upgrades. I've never really had a problem with it being overpriced.
  
• Are these not the same?
  
  USF
  
  
• So the issue with moving all the team weapons to T1(LT) is what is my incentive to go T2(CPT)? Light vehicles matter less the more players you add to the game because more people can have AT guns, plant mines, more infantry for chain snares etc. CPT would become more or less useless unless situationally you needed a unit. AAHT is great for shooting down planes; pack howitzer could be neeeded over the mortar at some point.
  
• Why does USF T3(Maj) come "very late"? If you rush tech in a realistic way with changes to the T1 and T2 as you've suggested, I'd go LT into Maj. I'd purchase an ambo and weapon racks of course as well. So in total USF spends 195F inorder to have their Maj, OKW must spend 190 in total to have schwer HQ up. Ostheer 175 total to tech into their T3. Sovs 185F for T1 into T4 with no T2, molotovs, or AT nades. The only major faction difference is UKF. Sitting at 160F for full tech and weapon racks.
  
• Shermans arn't really useless, they're actually very good for their price. I do agree though that the USF should have some kind of meaty tank to soak damage. At least in team games that isn't really a problem because you just let the UKF and Sovs get their tanks while you spam calliopes or something.
  
• Because USF is a munitions consuming faction doesn't mean lower price of p47s. Should lower the price because the ability is crap when you compare cost to power.
  
• Riflemen mine laying takes a long time because you spam rifles. If they had fast mine laying and you had rifles everywhere you'd have mines everywhere as well, and that'd be hell for axis.
  
• Pershing CP is fine. Compare the pershing to the Tiger. Tiger has more HP but less penetration. They have equal armor and come at the same CPs and IIRC they cost the same as well. Technically both these tanks are overperforming, since they're both no brainer choices. No choice should be a no brainer that just deals with most targets. Also command panther is 11 CPs now, it just says 10 on the menu doctrine but ingame it will be 11.
  
  Soviets
  
• Thank you. Someone understand the T34s are overperforming. I know you only mean the T34/76, but they're to efficient for what they do. 10F increase to 90F would be fine.
  
• Katy durability matches pwerfer. I think we should lower the durability of other rocket arty vehicles instead of buffing the lower durability ones.
  
• Do you mean increase the cooldown between salvos? because decrease would be more beneficial for soviets. TBH I don't actually know to well how this unit performs because if one is ever built ostheer just drops a dive bomb on it. Either that or railway.
  
• If you're going to match the ISU-152 to other TD of the Axis you need to balance it respectivly. significantly lower RoF, or removal of HE rounds.
  

Also if these changes carried over into 1v1 it would crush 1v1 balance. You'd need to separate values for 3v3/4v4s and 1v1/2v2s. Maybe even 2v2s separate all together.

Suggesting that OKW should start with Kubel instead of infantry and also suggesting that flame grenades should be nerfed at the same time is ridiculous.

Think about the consequences of that combination. There are maps with key buildings over key points. You would have literally no way to deny them that building.

Edit: similarly you can't talk about nerfing the auto fire on the field gun and improving the barrage until the barrage is fixed... It's been bugged for years.

If you are losing to OKW infantry in lategame, may I suggest:

• Rocket artillery
  
• double-upgraded infantry
  
• off-map artillery
  
• on-map artillery
  
• snipers + micro (hard, i know)
  
• Medium tanks (used defensively)
  
• strafing runs
  
• shock troops + for the motherland
  
• Rangers + use of truesight
  
• learning to play
  
  

• Rocket artillery（Only katyusha is non doctrinal on ally side, while axis can access stronger ,more effective, reliable rocket artillery earlier called OP stuka)
  
• double-upgraded infantry(axis every single weapon upgrade is more effective and dont havw to pay extra tech cost and be able to upgrade on field and can preserve more munition for off map ability)
  
• off-map artillery(most of the axis off map is stronger while cheaper)
  
• on-map artillery(axis mortar dominant dps, isg dominant range , stuka dominant all non-vehicle artillery of ally and all of them are non-doctrinal)
  
• snipers + micro (axis's sniper is more effective)
  
• Medium tanks (elefant and jagtiger comepletely forbid ally medium tank defensive play)
  
• strafing runs(Dont you know SCAS is cheaper but stronger than p47)
  
• shock troops + for the motherland(sink munition everytime to close the gap of ultimate long range fire power of axis is meaningless)
  
• Rangers + use of truesight(strum can use the same tactic to tear you before you can get ranger)
  
• learning to play, axis players
  

• Rocket artillery（Only katyusha is non doctrinal on ally side, while axis can access stronger ,more effective, reliable rocket artillery earlier called OP stuka)
  
• double-upgraded infantry(axis every single weapon upgrade is more effective and dont havw to pay extra tech cost and be able to upgrade on field and can preserve more munition for off map ability)
  
• off-map artillery(most of the axis off map is stronger while cheaper)
  
• on-map artillery(axis mortar dominant dps, isg dominant range , stuka dominant all non-vehicle artillery of ally and all of them are non-doctrinal)
  
• snipers + micro (axis is sniper is more effective)
  
• Medium tanks (elefant and jagtiger comepletely forbid ally medium tank defensive play)
  
• strafing runs(Dont you know SCAS is cheaper but stronger than p47)
  
• shock troops + for the motherland(sink munition everytime to close the gap of ultimate long range fire power of axis is meaningless)
  
• Rangers + use of truesight(strum can use the same tactic to tear you before you can get ranger)
  
• learning to play, axis players
  

I suspect you are talking about team games and he is not.

• Rocket artillery（Only katyusha is non doctrinal on ally side, while axis can access stronger ,more effective, reliable rocket artillery earlier called OP stuka)
  
• double-upgraded infantry(axis every single weapon upgrade is more effective and dont havw to pay extra tech cost and be able to upgrade on field and can preserve more munition for off map ability)
  
• off-map artillery(most of the axis off map is stronger while cheaper)
  
• on-map artillery(axis mortar dominant dps, isg dominant range , stuka dominant all non-vehicle artillery of ally and all of them are non-doctrinal)
  
• snipers + micro (axis's sniper is more effective)
  
• Medium tanks (elefant and jagtiger comepletely forbid ally medium tank defensive play)
  
• strafing runs(Dont you know SCAS is cheaper but stronger than p47)
  
• shock troops + for the motherland(sink munition everytime to close the gap of ultimate long range fire power of axis is meaningless)
  
• Rangers + use of truesight(strum can use the same tactic to tear you before you can get ranger)
  
• learning to play, axis players
  

You could've just said Axis OP plz nerf.

@Mr.Smith;

+AT-rol; With all the implementation suggested in mainpost units would fix the last game AT-role, that is to say big fish eats the small fish (HeavyTDs vs TDs). Good work.

+AI-role; Axis all have more armor/health to compensate against TD (Brummbär/KT need a tone down AI role), but on the allied side with their papertanks the presence AI role is very difficult because there are counters of these tanks. Because they do not leave does their AI role.

Allied AI role do the middle tanks (T34/Cromw/Sherm), with suggested in mainpost will remain the same few presence in lastgame.


IMO this suggestions would help to let them do their AI role work:

-Panthers/SpeedBoost need review (Tone down would help let them do their AI role allies work).
-Pshercks tone down to levels bazoo/piats (Tone down would help let them do their AI role allies work).

The mainpost suggestions fix the last game AT-role, but the allies lack more presence AI rol tanks.

@Mr.Smith;

IMO this suggestions would help to let them do their AI role work:

-Panthers/SpeedBoost need review (Tone down would help let them do their AI role allies work).
-Pshercks tone down to levels bazoo/piats (Tone down would help let them do their AI role allies work).

The mainpost suggestions fix the last game AT-role, but the allies lack more presence AI rol tanks.

Combat Blitz is long overdue a nerf, and will be nerfed anyway when OKW enters scope.

OST Blitz is OK; OST Panthers get a +15% speed boost (like Comets do, now), as opposed to the complete insanity that is OKW Combat Blitz.

IMO Schrecks are OK. It's an expensive squad with many counters. For OKW, ideally schrecks should be moved to a reworked Obersoldaten squad, because Sturmpioneers need to sweep mines/demos, and, given the rest of their stats, there's no way thye should get sweepers&schrecks at the same time.

You could've just said Axis OP plz nerf.

Maybe you are right, but what I have listed out are facts.

If anything needs to be fixed first it needs to be the absolute cancer that is call in medium tank spam.