Teamgame dominant meta

What about the ostheer air supply?

There are some maps when they can build a sim city on either the fuel or the ammo to feed the okw monster. The supply planes are imposible to counter because they appear from their side of the map.

Maybe make the planes appear from your side of the map or something like that, so they have to leave their nest and take the initiative to hunt down the enemy AA

herp derp lets just change the whole game?

So many of these gripes don't take into account many of the drawbacks of some of these units. Like the Sturmtiger isn't a fully automatic death machine. Slow, painfully long to fire, even more painfully long reload (in which it can be decrewed easily, and stolen), and fairly expensive. Not mention locked into a mainly BS doctrine.

The point is it absolutely can't miss. If only ostheer panthers with their slow reload could also make shots count everytime!

Couldn't we simply remove the Accuracy Vet of the Firefly in exchange for something else? Also, in your example, is the Panther stationary or moving?

Bottom line though, I'm in favour of a Firefly that can't hit anything when moving but is accurate against vehicles when stationary. That's what I expect from a fixed Firefly.

While I haven't been in a balance discussion for a long time, I really have to voice my opinion here. Some of the suggestions are downright unsettling to me.


I can agree with a Moving Accuracy Decrease. But I believe it's Stationary Accuracy should be left alone. It fires very slowly already so you want that first shot to count.

Just the Moving Accuracy Decrease alone will make a huge difference since Kiting with it will become rather useless. So a British Player will need to support their Firefly to allow it to remain useful, such as supporting with PIAT Infantry.

No other change will be needed in my opinion. We should test how things go with the Moving Accuracy Nerf first before throwing anything else in the mix.


While I agree with the point that Crocs can be an annoying thing to fight in Team Games, I feel decreasing it's range and damage is going over the top. The Croc's Armour already sucks as it is so having to come in close is way too risky, especially since Axis AT in general is formidable. It's suppose to help you break down concentrated defenses towards the end game. If you can't do that reliably, why the hell would anyone want it to begin with? I'm willing to bet most British Players don't want the Croc to become a Generalist Tank, that's what the Normal Churchill is for.

So I have an alternative proposal. Let's decrease the Rate of Fire instead (Like the rate of fire of a Firefly.) and change the Rate of Fire Vet bonuses it gets into something else. This allows it to maintain it's Fear Factor with powerful streams of fire that players call it in for but still give the Axis more time to counter it or maneuver their infantry. This also make sense when you look at the size of the fuel tank on the Croc. I imagine that the crew in real life wouldn't dream of firing it as fast as in the game, since they would burn through the fuel quickly.

Preferably, I would say make it fire a 5 Second long stream of fire and let it cool down for at least 10 Seconds or so.

I believe this should be reasonable while allowing it to remain a desirable tank to get. Just ask yourself, do you see yourself ever getting into a position where you will feel you NEED a Croc once you nerf it's damage and range? I feel it will never see the battlefield again after that. I IMPLORE you, Mr.Smith, to consider a heavy rate of fire nerf instead. It's an endgame unit after all and should remain a desired unit for the player to use.


No, no, NO to the range nerf for the Mortar Pit. The Mortar Pit is Immobile and CANNOT be broken down. There is absolutely no fair reason why the auto-attack range should be nerfed. Once the British Player builds one, he can't move it to somewhere more useful once he pushes the enemy back, unless he break immersion and kills his own men. It needs that extra range to remain useful, especially on larger maps. As long as this limitation exists, a range nerf is not something I'd recommend.

I do have an alternate proposal for this too, however.

We know that once buffed by a garrisoned squad or a Foward Assembly, the Mortar Pits becomes extremely potent killing machines. This is because the Rate of Fire for their Auto-Attack gets a huge buff. I believe this is where we should divert our attention. I believe the bonus should no longer be applied to their auto attack and should instead be limited to their barrage commands, making it fire at a quicker rate and sooner. And while we are at it, I feel it should also speed up it's abilty to deploy their smoke barrage. That way they get a meaningful buff elsewhere in exchange for removing their overpowered rate of fire when supplied. If it's not enough, decrease the Auto-Attack rate of fire to match the Soviet 120mm Mortar.

You're already paying a whopping 400 Manpower. It has to remain useful. I'm sure as hell not going to pay that for a normal range mortar I can't move. The British are a Pop Cap heavy faction and can't field a large force like the others, especially when you dare to build emplacements. Being able to get fire support in a wider area of the map makes up for their small numbers. My proposal allows them to keep this without being overpowered.

As for the ISG, I believe it's range should also be left alone. I agree that it's a real pain in the ass to deal with but I feel that since it can only fire within an arc, it need that extra range to compensate not being able to engage in a 360 Degree angle. Not it mention it doesn't have a big splash. Accuracy is where it might be a problem.

If something REALLY had to be done with it (Even though I think it's fine as is...), I'd say make the Auto-Attack Scatter Radius wider. But again, not really a big issue to me.

So basically - "Don't nerf my awesome Brit units!"


"You're already paying a whopping 400 Manpower. It has to remain useful. I'm sure as hell not going to pay that for a normal range mortar I can't move."

A mortar that has DOUBLE the firepower, is much harder to kill and can brace when it needs to. That justifies the extra 120MP and shorter range.

It needs a slight nerf. I'm sorry, I am sure you enjoy using it and splurging mortar shells across half the map but it's too much.

So basically - "Don't nerf my awesome Brit units!"


"You're already paying a whopping 400 Manpower. It has to remain useful. I'm sure as hell not going to pay that for a normal range mortar I can't move."

A mortar that has DOUBLE the firepower, is much harder to kill and can brace when it needs to. That justifies the extra 120MP and shorter range.

It needs a slight nerf. I'm sorry, I am sure you enjoy using it and splurging mortar shells across half the map but it's too much.

THe mortar pit is hard. Depending on game mode and map it is either tits OP or a waste of man power. It just seems difficult to make it work the way it needs to in its current form.

I really hate to see major changes but I think I have to say it needs to go and be replaced with some of the other suggestions we have seen through time. But I doubt Relic would let it happen.

So basically - "Don't nerf my awesome Brit units!"


"You're already paying a whopping 400 Manpower. It has to remain useful. I'm sure as hell not going to pay that for a normal range mortar I can't move."

A mortar that has DOUBLE the firepower, is much harder to kill and can brace when it needs to. That justifies the extra 120MP and shorter range.

It needs a slight nerf. I'm sorry, I am sure you enjoy using it and splurging mortar shells across half the map but it's too much.

Could you please take your signature to heart?

Did you even take note of the ENTIRE proposal? I suggested slapping the Mortar Pit with a heavy rate of fire nerf, which is the true reason the Mortar Pit is currently overpowered. I in no way argued that the Mortar Pit didn't need a nerf, just that a range nerf isn't the way to go. Rate of Fire, when supplied, is where it's stupidly overpowered. A dual Mortar Emplacement has no right to such a buff to it's auto-fire.

Being a long range dual Mortar Pit also completely justifies it having a really slow fire rate in my opinion. Two shells falling in succession makes it strongly comparable to the 120mm in the damage it causes. So it shouldn't fire faster than one. It should have the slowest auto fire rate in the game in exchange for the added range, in my opinion.

Plus surely to God you realize that an immobile Mortar that can't be broken down or moved can't have the same range as a regular one? Or that you absolutely cannot delete the Mortar Pit to free up Pop Cap? Please don't pretend that isn't an issue that should be taken into account. Not to mention I made no argument in favour of keeping Brace as it is?

I'm actually quite happy with the idea that Brace might cancel out repair during it's duration. It makes sense and would go a long way to fixing issue, thus I didn't bring it up as a problem with Mr. Smith's ideas.

I would like to offer the following advice, which should help team game balance and theoretically not even be too much of a big change for 1v1 meta:

1. Tiger II should be a call-in tank, only available to certain doctrines for 14-15 CP. I don't think it's fair that every OKW commander can get one if they so choose. It doesn't make sense that it's more "common" in team games than a Tiger I.

2. The Tiger II and Jagdtiger really should not be respawnable if they die, similar to the Tiger Ace and how they worked in Coh 1.

3. Tier 4 artillery pieces and call-in artillery like land mattresses and calliope's should be limited to 2 per player on the field at any given time.

4. Mortar pits should be limited to 2 per player MAX. I think 1 per player would even be reasonable.

5. IMO the Jackson and M10 should be swapped, with the Jackson being a call-in commander unit and the M10 being the T4 american TD (at a much cheaper cost, with perhaps some buffs). Like the Tiger II rarity comment above it doesn't make much sense for the M36 to be so much more common than the M10.

6. KV-2 buff

7. Increase fuel and munitions depots (or maybe just fuel?) to 250-300 manpower each. They're always spammed hard in 3v3-4v4.



As you can see, most of my suggestions revolve around armor spam on both sides (and artillery spam for allies).

If you don't agree with my suggestions I would honestly like to hear why. I am open minded, these are just my observations off the top of my head.

Holy dude do you know how a player card works ? Do you know that ostheer has been out for twice as long as the other factions? You failed to regard the amount of Brits games I have, failed to regard any team games I have with other players and decided to cherry pick instead. Good conclusions bro.

I have a noob mate who's terrible at the game who I played with back in the day and I swopped between all the Allies factions when I played with him. His name is Jebuscrust and you see I have more games as Allies with him than axis.

Yes, I know how player cards work. Yes, you played about 300 games with one friend who liked Allies. However, you have probably 6x as many games as Axis and your claim to play "as much" allies as axis is really not true. I can also see that all of your allied rankings are on hold so you haven't played any of them in a long time. You are a primarily axis player and claiming to be otherwise should be trolled. Note that I'm not criticizing your player card as a whole (as a whole, it is probably the best for a team player in 2v2 through 4v4 that I've ever seen), just don't pretend to be an allied player.

Also, I probably shouldn't have trolled as much as I did in this thread, but was annoyed because I don't think the OP was genuine in wanting to undo any of the imbalance that the last two patches created. That, plus most of the people who are most vocal are primary axis players and are asking for more allied nerfs, when the win rates in 2v2+ are already lopsided.

WC-51 changes? Like what? Haven't seen that jeep mentioned on the forums in a long time.

in the early days of the last patch they had changes planned for the wc-51 that would reduce its fuel price to (if I remember right) 10-15. It was later placed out of "scope" =(

in the early days of the last patch they had changes planned for the wc-51 that would reduce its fuel price to (if I remember right) 10-15. It was later placed out of "scope" =(

Oh yeah. They were also gonna reduce the ridiculous manpower cost of the M20 IIRC.

I would like to offer the following advice, which should help team game balance and theoretically not even be too much of a big change for 1v1 meta:

1. Tiger II should be a call-in tank, only available to certain doctrines for 14-15 CP. I don't think it's fair that every OKW commander can get one if they so choose. It doesn't make sense that it's more "common" in team games than a Tiger I.

2. The Tiger II and Jagdtiger really should not be respawnable if they die, similar to the Tiger Ace and how they worked in Coh 1.

3. Tier 4 artillery pieces and call-in artillery like land mattresses and calliope's should be limited to 2 per player on the field at any given time.

4. Mortar pits should be limited to 2 per player MAX. I think 1 per player would even be reasonable.

5. IMO the Jackson and M10 should be swapped, with the Jackson being a call-in commander unit and the M10 being the T4 american TD (at a much cheaper cost, with perhaps some buffs). Like the Tiger II rarity comment above it doesn't make much sense for the M36 to be so much more common than the M10.

6. KV-2 buff

7. Increase fuel and munitions depots (or maybe just fuel?) to 250-300 manpower each. They're always spammed hard in 3v3-4v4.



As you can see, most of my suggestions revolve around armor spam on both sides (and artillery spam for allies).

If you don't agree with my suggestions I would honestly like to hear why. I am open minded, these are just my observations off the top of my head.

+1

excellent ideas

+1

excellent ideas

Yeah you know I do like these ideas. Not sure how I feel about the m10 one, as I think USF would literally always be forced to go armor company in 3v3+ though, just to frontally pen anything bigger than OKW P4s reliably.

Good list of changes

I really don't want these massive, sweeping changes like making the KT doctrinal or swapping the Jackson for the M10. The more I think about it, I don't really know how far behind I can even get behind Elefant/Jagdtiger nerfs, either. I only have a small handful of minor complaints about balance right now. I think making huge changes will only make things worse.

TL;DR Don't change the game too drastically

herp derp lets just change the whole game?

So many of these gripes don't take into account many of the drawbacks of some of these units. Like the Sturmtiger isn't a fully automatic death machine. Slow, painfully long to fire, even more painfully long reload (in which it can be decrewed easily, and stolen), and fairly expensive. Not mention locked into a mainly BS doctrine.

What he said.

I skipped a lot of the thread so apologies if someone has already mentioned it but the British Royal Artillery Concentration Barrage in conjunction with Anvil tactics needs to be looked at. It is capable of wiping and then destroying mortar/ISG teams in a single call-in in the fog. It also wipes (but not destroys?) artillery pieces in a single call-in, meaning unless you can build your artillery piece in the base sector you are basically unable to counter barrage mortar pits. It's a bit niche, but I've been seeing it increasingly often in 2v2, and sometimes with 3 british players using it in 3v3 to quickly destroy OKW trucks / barrage retreat points. I'd suggest removing its ability to strike in the FOW or at least removing the air burst shell component from it.

I would like to offer the following advice, which should help team game balance and theoretically not even be too much of a big change for 1v1 meta:

1. Tiger II should be a call-in tank, only available to certain doctrines for 14-15 CP. I don't think it's fair that every OKW commander can get one if they so choose. It doesn't make sense that it's more "common" in team games than a Tiger I.

2. The Tiger II and Jagdtiger really should not be respawnable if they die, similar to the Tiger Ace and how they worked in Coh 1.

3. Tier 4 artillery pieces and call-in artillery like land mattresses and calliope's should be limited to 2 per player on the field at any given time.

4. Mortar pits should be limited to 2 per player MAX. I think 1 per player would even be reasonable.

5. IMO the Jackson and M10 should be swapped, with the Jackson being a call-in commander unit and the M10 being the T4 american TD (at a much cheaper cost, with perhaps some buffs). Like the Tiger II rarity comment above it doesn't make much sense for the M36 to be so much more common than the M10.

6. KV-2 buff

7. Increase fuel and munitions depots (or maybe just fuel?) to 250-300 manpower each. They're always spammed hard in 3v3-4v4.



As you can see, most of my suggestions revolve around armor spam on both sides (and artillery spam for allies).

If you don't agree with my suggestions I would honestly like to hear why. I am open minded, these are just my observations off the top of my head.

Good suggestions, although I would hesitate to swap the M36 with the M10 simply because what you suggest would just enable spam (of the M10) rather than discourage it. Furthermore, the USF already struggles in the late game vs. anything more heavily armored than PzIVs, so they desperately need that Jackson to handle those threats. To prevent spam, all call-ins should be tied to relevant tech buildings. This solution has already been shown to be effective at reducing spam of T34-85s and Lend-Lease Shermans.

I also think that your first suggestion is probably well out of the scope of a patch simply because it would drastically upset the existing meta and reduce some of the asymmetric flavor of the OKW. I think your second suggestion is enough to solve a lot of the snow-balling that occurs in team games vs Axis. Because losing a KT in a 1v1 is essentially gg anyways, I don't think that would drastically change the balance there. If an OKW team loses their KTs, they can still fall back on doctrinal units like the JT, ST, or Cmd Panther (or the dreaded Flammenhetzer) if they still need access to more heavy hitters. Furthermore, the OKW panther and PzIV are already superior to the OST equivalents, reducing their need for call-ins in the first place. The KT is just a no-brainer in team games where resources are plentiful. Losing them should actually hurt.

All of this being said - such drastic changes need to be measured carefully against the other factions. I fear that the late game UKF tanks would dominate team games if the crutch of endless non-doctrinal KTs was removed from OKW.

TLDR: +1 to all but points 1 and 5 (ambivalent about 7)

(Edited for grammar)

Delayed fuse shells were actually our first idea for USF mortar Vet1. The reason we didn't proceed with that was because we found them out to be OP as fuck.

Haven't seen them in game for years, can you explain to me why they are so strong?

Haven't seen them in game for years, can you explain to me why they are so strong?

Think of Commando Light Gammon bombs. Now think try to think of a T0 260MP mortar spamming them out on your MG.

Delayed fuse barrage is balanced on MortarHT, since you put out a significant investment to get it.

in the early days of the last patch they had changes planned for the wc-51 that would reduce its fuel price to (if I remember right) 10-15. It was later placed out of "scope" =(

Most crucially, we wanted to improve its rotation rate, so that it can actually nagivate around the terrain. We also wanted to reduce vet requirements (shared veterancy doesn't work on USF vehicles). That way, you could conceivably field WC-51 in later stages of the game.

(We did put a mandatory 90 second cooldown before the first WC-51 could be called in, though)

1. Tiger II should be a call-in tank, only available to certain doctrines for 14-15 CP. I don't think it's fair that every OKW commander can get one if they so choose. It doesn't make sense that it's more "common" in team games than a Tiger I.

A better approach to Tiger II is making it mutually-exclusive with Sturmtiger/Command Panther/JT. That way the "lesser" untermensch doctrines also have some "teeth" to show in 4v4's.

We can never perfectly balance 4v4; this is not our goal. Our primary goal is to increase the number of viable strategies available to each faction. For 4v4, our only tool to achieve that is retouch the late-game strength of some commanders to bring them on an equal footing.

3. Tier 4 artillery pieces and call-in artillery like land mattresses and calliope's should be limited to 2 per player on the field at any given time.

All X-unit spam should be given well-defined counters, so that it's punishable. I haven't played against land-mattress yet, after the patch.

4. Mortar pits should be limited to 2 per player MAX. I think 1 per player would even be reasonable.

That won't solve Sim City (everybody can chip in). Nerfing brace will.

7. Increase fuel and munitions depots (or maybe just fuel?) to 250-300 manpower each. They're always spammed hard in 3v3-4v4.

Resource inflation is tricky, because you always have the same number of sectors on each team.
Show Spoiler

However, caches are a different story, and I do think they could go (or at least, their price should scale with the number of players):
- Locking down sectors means lesser possibility for harassment with infantry. That reinforces force concentration and blobbing
- The effect of caches is more visible in the late-game (where resource inflation is bad), than the early game (where you need resource concentration)
- OKW cannot contribute to the cache-building effort (yeah, OKW have salvage, but only the 1 guy that salvages can benefit from it)

Expensive caches means that a successful flank will deal a significant blow to the enemy. This would give people an alternative goal to achieve rather than bullrush to Fuel/Munition points.

Look, you know, everybody knows the Jagdtiger is a big problem. Everybody here knows. They gave it too much range and they make it so there's nothing to counter it. Nothing. And it's a terrible design. It's just terrible. But I think the Elefant - I think it's fine. It's got no range. None. If there's a problem there - and I'm not saying there is a problem just that there might be a problem - it's the spotting scopes. But that's not the range. That's another problem. And I think we can all say that's the bigger problem, really. Much, much bigger. Maybe the biggest problem.

And now, you know, they're telling us they're going to make howitzers seventy fuel and they're going to nerf the Stuka bomb and they're going to make so it's not one-hitting howitzers. But they're doing nothing about the Il-2 Precision Strike. Just nothing. I think - I think we all know - that the Stuka's broken. It's so broken. But if they nerf the Stuka they have to nerf the Precision Strike too. And I can - we can all - agree with that. But right now that's not what they're telling us. They're telling us they're not doing that. I'm saying - this is - it's dumb. I mean, this is just the dumbest decision here. I dunno what they're even thinking. But it's dumb.

And, I mean, we're not even getting to the big stuff yet. It's unbelievable. These guys - they still have Panzerfusiliers as six population. Everybody knows they should be seven. Everybody. And I tell you, that's like, a one minute fix. One number. Done. But they're telling us it can't be done and it's not the focus and that there are are bigger problems when everybody knows that's the biggest problem. And let me tell you - I would get it done. I would get it done so fast. I would make sure that it gets done. They would be seven population. Seven. Like they're supposed to be. Seven.

And also StuGs are still 560 health. Why? Nobody knows. Nobody. Let me tell you - this is just making us all look so bad. They think we are so stupid and they can raise the population to ten and nerf TWP and still let this thing get three-hitted by a Jackson or a Firefly. They think we're that stupid. But we're not. We're not going to be stupid. We're going to raise the health to 640, which - by the way - which was what it was always supposed to be, and we're going to make sure we never look so stupid again. That's what we're going to do. And we're going to get it done right and it's going to be great.

There's no allied equivalent to the Stuka Dive Bomb, especially considering cost and mode of operation.

Damage nerf to 280 means that T34/85's will take an equal number of shots to die as before the damage nerf. This change will only affect the survivability of stock medium allied T3 tanks.

Sure. Mark Target could do with a nerf, though.

Trash doctrines and abilities will have to be reworked. From my perspective (and all of us share this viewpoint) is that doctrines should not be "carried" by a single OP ability (see artillery cover).

Ideally, the doctrine should be composed of useful abilities that also make sense when bundled together. Thankfully, both Tactical Support and Elite Armour have useless abilities that can be buffed to make doctrines feel more thematic, rather than make singular units define the doctrine.

Damage nerf means that cost can go down, by a lot.

Comets already require 3 shots to go down to Elefant/JT, and they will still require 3 shots to go down post-change.

This is similar to demo-charges, which are 90MU all-or-nothing investments.
With Elefant/JT damage nerf we merely want to avoid those things from being too good at wiping things.

Stuka dive bomb only kills something if you are deaf or braindead - you can't use them in base anymore so there is no way to wipe a blob with it.

Damage nerf is simply stupid because the JT/elefant are suppose to counter the bullshit super-heavy with ridiculous amount of health - if you want to nerf damage, then nerf the IS2/ISU armor or health as well, or you have to decrease the reload time (it's 8 sec!! how can you not get away?)

Right now Paks/Raketens, even stuG, on top of taking 6-7 penetrated shots to kill a 1000+ health super heavy, will often bounce off too much at bad RNG, thats why you resort to the more reliable, yet extremely expensive JT/Elefant (ISU can counter infantry, these 2 heavy TD can't)

and you forgot that right now axis still need these units to push back the allies late game to win.
before Pz IV and Panther get buffed to an acceptable level of power on par with allies, so their mid game don't suck; you dont have anything to counter the extremely potent T34 spam - it's 80 fuel, come on; or in general allies medium spam until super heavy TD hits the field.
And even now you can swarm it easily with the amount of mediums you can get.

You need a good Pz4/Panther to compensate or axis will get massacre once allies get a critical mass of mediums.

Sturmtiger:
This was the only reliable blob counter for OKW against rifle/tommy blobs.
I can't say for now but MG34 still suck and there is nothing to reliably punish blobbers.
And of course, you talked about nerfing stuka so...