Panthers need adjustment

Do not underestimate 4 (i've seen way more than that) T34/76's though. The other day a swarm of these took out my vet 2 and vet 1 Panthers with the loss of only 1 T34. They can be incredibly mobile and take a fair number of hits from a panther.

-If you were getting hit from behind, then the high armor of PV and low pen of T3476 is irrelevant.
-PV DPS is not good, alternative, the high pen is irrelevant against low armor T76.

-If you were getting hit from behind, then the high armor of PV and low pen of T3476 is irrelevant.
-PV DPS is not good, alternative, the high pen is irrelevant against low armor T76.

Exactly, and that's what T34's are good at. Swarming, getting to the sides and behind Axis tanks and wiping them out.

Exactly, and that's what T34's are good at. Swarming, getting to the sides and behind Axis tanks and wiping them out.

For exactly that reason I don´t get why some people even build the T-34/85. The T-34/76 is way more cost efficient and the 85mm gun still doesn´t offer that much more. Both tanks usually need to flank. Yet you get a lot more T-34/76s for the cost.

That could help. However that still wouldn't be enough to convince to tech up to T4 to build a Panther, instead of building 3 Stugs. At best I would go for Stug + brummbar, but not a Panther.

So that's the thing, three unturreted AT focused vehicles and one unturreted AI vehicle. What then, is it that makes turreted vehicles less functional or inaccessible? If one will tech up to T4 and still build multiple T3 units, then there might be merit into looking at what units are left out of this equation: The ostwind, p4, panther, and panzerwerfer.

TBH, I personally go for T4 for the panzerwerfer. But all the other units are turreted vehicles. I think that's suspect to how Ostheer's design functions in a post WFA world.

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The Stug is a medium tank destroyer specialist. Slight modifications to the Panther will make either unit overshadow the other unit. Panther needs a rework to be complementary to the Stug; not a competitor. Then, Stug is what you would build to counter allied TDs, and Panther is what you would build to tank some damage, and hold advanced mediums (e.g., Comets/T-34/85) and heavies off.

I disagree: The StuG is an unturreted tank destroyer that can't defend itself when flanked. The Panther is a turreted tank destroyer that can maneuver to the flanks and defend them.

Essentially I have the entirely opposite position. The Panther should act as a heavily armored mobile tank that should be able to move to the flanks to cut off and engage enemy tanks attempting to flank the Ostheer position. StuGs, being unturreted and more expendable, hold 'the line' soaking up damage and holding off allied pushes.

Only the latter half is true right now, and more or less how Ostheer games play out: They defend until their opponents makes a particularly bad push (as in, not flanking the StuGs).

We're long since converged to the fact that the Panther needs to deal 200 damage to be worthy. This will allow the Panther to be better-optimised for a different class of targets than the Stug.

Really? Of all the suggestions I've heard for the Panther over the course of this game it's consistently been about its moving accuracy. I can't recall a thread where the Panther having 200 damage being discussed. Maybe I missed that one.

Given that the Panther can now come out faster (teching costs) and will deal more damage, I don't know what would be the balancing act (e.g., nerfing vet2 durability). However, the usefulness of the unit should change to match a 18/19 popcap performance.

Well, with the issue being its rate of fire before getting vet and its accuracy, especially on the move, I feel like those might've been the realm of the balancing act rather than tech costs and damage...

Do not underestimate 4 (i've seen way more than that) T34/76's though. The other day a swarm of these took out my vet 2 and vet 1 Panthers with the loss of only 1 T34. They can be incredibly mobile and take a fair number of hits from a panther.

Thats because of the low dps of Panthers, Stugs just have a much higher damage output (plus target weakpoint). Ok, a Panther can take more hits, but Stugs are cheap af, if you lose one, it doesnt matter (similiar to a t34-76).

I think the panther doesnt necessarily need a buff, but rather other tanks including the comet, cromwell, JP4 and stug need a nerf. Atm, I dont see why I should get a Panther as Ost (only if you have really good map control and tons of fuel, while your opponent hasnt) over stug spam, or why I should get a panther over a jp4 (maybe if the map is bad for long range fights, like Trois Point or smth).

The only reason I honestly prefer the Panther to a StuG is that the StuG pathing (just like all other turretless tanks) is completely fucked up.

Due preparing Comet nerf, buffing Panthers does not make sense.

play brits, they have a better panther that is

faster, snipes infantry and tanks alike, has more sight, better rotation, easy crush, a gas shot which oneshots At guns, a normal shot which oneshots at guns, blitzkrieg already at vet0 and can't be penetrated by at guns

not to forget insane range

The core problem is that ost t4 is a waste of resources and thus everything in that tier is overpriced. OKW's is more or less fine considering the (currently superior) Comet is gonna be brought down to its level.


Just pls, turn panther into an actual "tank hunter" with 75% otm accuracy so it's actually worth building t4 for something. OST already has an anti-everything heavy tank, it would be good for panther to be its own thing, a tank hunter, but right now it can't hunt worth sh**.

also, ironic how German tank crews who were supposed to have better experience and equipment(sights) have worse on the move accuracy than allied crews.

also, ironic how German tank crews who were supposed to have better experience and equipment(sights) have worse on the move accuracy than allied crews.

Because Allied tanks had gyrostabilized guns. And they crew were trained to shoot while move, instead of axis crew, who shot from stop.

Stabillization on M4

game > realism ,but strong parts of units, must be preserved in the game

Due preparing Comet nerf, buffing Panthers does not make sense.

Because the comet was overpowered and could dominate a 1v1. I know you only play teamgames, but even there I have seen swarms of comets destroy everything. If you can't see why the Comet needed a nerf and the Ostheer Panther a buff, I am afraid you are playing a different game.

Ostheer Panther sucks and doesn't reflect its cost in an alreaady underwhelming and way too expensive tier that is almost impossible to reliably get in a 1v1.

If you can't see why the Comet needed a nerf and or the Ostheer Panther a buff, I am afraid you are playing a different game.

Nerf unit and in the same time buff they counter? NO

Buffing Panthers, you will make all T34 and M4 useless.
Enough is remove overperforming units, not make new one.

Nerf unit and in the same time buff they counter? NO

Yes exactly. Doesn't need to be a huge buff, just slight one.

Buffing Panthers, you will make all T34 and M4 useless.

In what game mode? A T34 is cheap as *** and can be spammed easily in a 1v1 and 2v2. A Panther is expensive as *** and can't be spammed by an Ostheer player in a 1v1 and 2v2, especially in a 1v1.

Last time I checked a sherman comes way earlier than a Panther, is a lot cheaper and you can easily have two to three by the time one panther shows up.

Ostheer Panther is underwhelming vs all targets, not just a comet..

In what game mode? A T34 is cheap as *** and can be spammed easily in a 1v1 and 2v2. A Panther is expensive as *** and can't be spammed by an Ostheer player in a 1v1 and 2v2, especially in a 1v1.

Last time I checked a sherman comes way earlier than a Panther, is a lot cheaper and you can easily have two to three by the time one panther shows up.

Ostheer Panther is underwhelming vs all targets, not just a comet..

Can you post Your playercard? I want know your gaming experience and about what rank you speak.
You always only only buf axis, nerf allies.

The easiest thing would simply be to copy the OKW Panther stats to the Ost Panther. No different performance versus T-34s or Shermans yet another option to use the Panther as somewhat reliable AI vehicle. After all the Panthers MGs are usually the argument to justify it having less range than other dedicated AT units. Then the MGs should actually perform... which only is the case for the OKW vehicle.

Can you post Your playercard? I want know your gaming experience and about what rank you speak.
You always only only buf axis, nerf allies.

Playercard lol? You play 3v3 and 4v4 and always talk about balance, when you know balance is about 1v1 and 2v2 at most. I always talk about balance in the 1v1 and 2v2 spectrum. What will my playercard proof versus your arguments? You don't even play 1v1 or 2v2 lol and mostly play allies...

I have made many Allied needs buffs here and there arguments, you simply only nitpick on those that refer to Axis needing buffs.

The entire Ostheer faction makes no bloody sense.

Bunch of tanks that either don't damage infantry at all (a StuG with a mounted MG can stand right in front of an infantry unit for half a minute and not take out a single model) or very little, thus needing to be supported by infantry at all times, and...

...bunch of infantry that is drastically less durable than any other faction in the game both on a per-squad and a per-model basis, thus unable to reliably support armor, especially in the mid-late game.

The Panther is just one of the many absurd symptoms of this, alongside the unarmored armored car, the impossible munitions expenses (either upgrade Grenadiers/Pioneers with weapons to have any chance in direct firefights against other factions' basic unupgraded infantry, let alone upgraded, or use grenades/mines, but not both), and the instawipes (now seemingly more or less fixed via the model spacing adjustment).

Playercard lol? You play 3v3 and 4v4 and always talk about balance, when you know balance is about 1v1 and 2v2 at most. I always talk about balance in the 1v1 and 2v2 spectrum. What will my playercard proof versus your arguments? You don't even play 1v1 or 2v2 lol and mostly play allies...

Payercard reflect how much is biased. Reflect his knowlege of game. And show, what he want.

Because Allied tanks had gyrostabilized guns. And they crew were trained to shoot while move, instead of axis crew, who shot from stop.

Stabillization on M4

game > realism ,but strong parts of units, must be preserved in the game

ofc let's just forget about the same feature on german tanks lol

ofc let's just forget about the same feature on german tanks lol

Or the superior suspension