Panthers need adjustment

It's my opinion that for the very high cost of Panthers, either their performance against infantry or their cost be adjusted. Currently, it's a hard-skinned (but not that hard, until vetted) tank destroyer that has a rotating turret.

Both versions are worthless against infantry. By the time they hit the field, you will have halfway to fully vetted infantry running around and probably several AT guns/AT infantry.

For the OKW version, it costs nearly as much as an Ost Tiger. It's only 30 more fuel for the Tiger. A commonly comparable unit, the Comet (which I think costs less) is great for AT/AI. Axis forces already have tank destroyer units. Why is the Panther a dedicated tank destroyer?

Because of it's high cost, I think the Panther should retain it's AT power but also give it a boost in AI ability similar to the Panzer 4. OR, give it an ability unlocked by veterancy or by using Munis that good against infantry.

this will help bring it in line with other late game non-doc tanks that cost a lot of resources.

Panther bounces a lot more shots than the comet (I think their armor is about the same, but axis at is much stronger in general i.e. Shrecks, axis armor armament compared to zooks, allied armor armament). The ost panther is... weird and bad for lack of a better description, but the okw panther is a good at platform that almost always pens and has the mg42 pintle upgrade that actually does a lot of damage to infantry and can shoot down planes sometimes, and like I said above, is good at bouncing allied anti tank options, and it has decent (not comet-godlike-sanic) maneuverability for a tank of its class. It also gets much better vet than comets, and comets are being rebalanced right now anyway. The only change to panthers I would suggest is make the ost panther statwise identical to the okw panther, but leave its cost the same to compensate for having to tech battle phase, build another building and all that shit and not getting the two extra levels of vet.
P.S. it definitely doesn't need p4 efficiency against infantry. That would make it a comet+ even in the comets current state, which is being merged in many respects since it's basically a medium+ Everything's got to have some sort of counterbalance to its strengths.

Its a tank destroyer /thread

play brits, they have a better panther that is

faster, snipes infantry and tanks alike, has more sight, better rotation, easy crush, a gas shot which oneshots At guns, a normal shot which oneshots at guns, blitzkrieg already at vet0 and can't be penetrated by at guns

Buffing the Panther is wrong answer to the issues.

Fixing the ludicrously overpowered Comet and buffing the Tiger slightly are what should really happen.

The trick to using a panther against either inf or tanks is using it head on, its frontal armour is insane and its front machine guns do actually hurt inf.

The OKW Panther is crazy expensive but that is because of the overall cost of reaching it at T4. It would make sense to make it cheaper but only if the process of tech up was more expensive.

Buffing the Panther is wrong answer to the issues.

Fixing the ludicrously overpowered Comet and buffing the Tiger slightly are what should really happen.

The trick to using a panther against either inf or tanks is using it head on, its frontal armour is insane and its front machine guns do actually hurt inf.

The OKW Panther is crazy expensive but that is because of the overall cost of reaching it at T4. It would make sense to make it cheaper but only if the process of tech up was more expensive.

Another reason for it being more expensive is that okw panther is simply much better than ostheer one.

OKW Panther is fine, minus some vet shuffling. OST panther should be mirrored to it and made more accessible by tweaks to T4.

Currently the Ostheer Panther's vet looks like this:

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig

Vet 2: (Armored skirts)
10% armor
40% turret rotation
+160 health

Vet 3
30% reload
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

One would think that the veterancy of the Ostheer panther could be adjusted so that at least vet 1 panthers got a passive improvement.

I would suggest smearing the reload modifier across more than 1 level of vet. Turret rotation, speed and/or accel/decel could be moved to vet 1.

Alternatively, there are three places the Ostheer panther gets buffs; DPS, Speed, and Durability. Each level of vet could contain all those benefits.

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

vet2 (armored skirts)
10% armor
+160 health

vet3
30% reload

I think something like this might get more functionality out of the Ostheer Panther.

Currently the Ostheer Panther's vet looks like this:

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig

Vet 2: (Armored skirts)
10% armor
40% turret rotation
+160 health

Vet 3
30% reload
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

One would think that the veterancy of the Ostheer panther could be adjusted so that at least vet 1 panthers got a passive improvement.

I would suggest smearing the reload modifier across more than 1 level of vet. Turret rotation, speed and/or accel/decel could be moved to vet 1.

Alternatively, there are three places the Ostheer panther gets buffs; DPS, Speed, and Durability. Each level of vet could contain all those benefits.

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

vet2 (armored skirts)
10% armor
+160 health

vet3
30% reload

I think something like this might get more functionality out of the Ostheer Panther.

My vote is still with just copypasta okw panther and call it a day. All the EFA troops and a lot of others have vet1 that just unlocks an ability. At least be thankful it's not the soviets, gettting trip mine flares on every damn squad.

Tge panther has been performing quite a bit better for me since they made the change to the mgs. Now while toggled to target armour the mgs go at inf making it's presence felt.

The EFA suffer from 0.5 moving accuracy modifier on all vehicles. This is exponentially worse than the 0.65 of OKW and 0.75 of USF and UKF. UKF comet and croms are going to be modified to 0.5 as well as of GCS patch currently. The lower the value of these numbers, glide shooting because more important for accuracy. They need to either lower the gap between factions or give a reload buff to panthers.

I think they could be ok with a slight price adjustment, to make their loss not quite as devistating. -20 fuel OH Panther and -10 for OKW.

Interesting arguements.

I do agree, that maybe if the cheaper and far, far more multi-role tanks like the comets were brought in the line the Panther wouldn't be so bad. I still would like to see a veteran unlocked or munititon-cost ability for Panthers to give it an anti-infantry ability or "escape" like the WP round.

I also agree the Tiger I is very lackluster. I'm not a big allied player but the IS2 also seems not that great for it's high cost and low speed.

Currently the Ostheer Panther's vet looks like this:

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig

Vet 2: (Armored skirts)
10% armor
40% turret rotation
+160 health

Vet 3
30% reload
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

One would think that the veterancy of the Ostheer panther could be adjusted so that at least vet 1 panthers got a passive improvement.

I would suggest smearing the reload modifier across more than 1 level of vet. Turret rotation, speed and/or accel/decel could be moved to vet 1.

Alternatively, there are three places the Ostheer panther gets buffs; DPS, Speed, and Durability. Each level of vet could contain all those benefits.

Vet 1:
Blitzkreig
20% max speed
10% accel/decel

vet2 (armored skirts)
10% armor
+160 health

vet3
30% reload

I think something like this might get more functionality out of the Ostheer Panther.

That could help. However that still wouldn't be enough to convince to tech up to T4 to build a Panther, instead of building 3 Stugs. At best I would go for Stug + brummbar, but not a Panther.

First things first:
- T3 & T4 needs to be more accessible

By more accessible I do not mean "skipping T3 should be made easier than ever". No. I mean shifting costs around so that you can start your build with either T3 or T4. However, at no point should you feel "stuck" or "married" to either tier. You should be allowed to combine tiers

- 2 out of 3 opposing factions are capped at medium tanks for their late game.

The Stug is a medium tank destroyer specialist. Slight modifications to the Panther will make either unit overshadow the other unit. Panther needs a rework to be complementary to the Stug; not a competitor. Then, Stug is what you would build to counter allied TDs, and Panther is what you would build to tank some damage, and hold advanced mediums (e.g., Comets/T-34/85) and heavies off.

We're long since converged to the fact that the Panther needs to deal 200 damage to be worthy. This will allow the Panther to be better-optimised for a different class of targets than the Stug.

Given that the Panther can now come out faster (teching costs) and will deal more damage, I don't know what would be the balancing act (e.g., nerfing vet2 durability). However, the usefulness of the unit should change to match a 18/19 popcap performance.

PS: With hold now available to all vehicles, and most vehicle accuracy-on-the-move normalized to 0.5, I don't think we need to overdo it with OST Panther moving accuracy. Otherwise the unit will become uncounterable in a run-and-gun mode.

- Yes, at some point the Stug will need some light nerfs too (e.,g TWP, popcap, but maybe get a cheaper MG)

Maybe give the stug longer range plus a longer reload to really cement its role as... not a panther. And of course a popcap increase.

If they are already annoying comet and panthers, why improve the panther?. Because this will unbalance against the Soviets who do not have good turret tanks.

That could help. However that still wouldn't be enough to convince to tech up to T4 to build a Panther, instead of building 3 Stugs. At best I would go for Stug + brummbar, but not a Panther.

First things first:
- T3 & T4 needs to be more accessible

By more accessible I do not mean "skipping T3 should be made easier than ever". No. I mean shifting costs around so that you can start your build with either T3 or T4. However, at no point should you feel "stuck" or "married" to either tier. You should be allowed to combine tiers

- 2 out of 3 opposing factions are capped at medium tanks for their late game.

The Stug is a medium tank destroyer specialist. Slight modifications to the Panther will make either unit overshadow the other unit. Panther needs a rework to be complementary to the Stug; not a competitor. Then, Stug is what you would build to counter allied TDs, and Panther is what you would build to tank some damage, and hold advanced mediums (e.g., Comets/T-34/85) and heavies off.

We're long since converged to the fact that the Panther needs to deal 200 damage to be worthy. This will allow the Panther to be better-optimised for a different class of targets than the Stug.

Given that the Panther can now come out faster (teching costs) and will deal more damage, I don't know what would be the balancing act (e.g., nerfing vet2 durability). However, the usefulness of the unit should change to match a 18/19 popcap performance.

PS: With hold now available to all vehicles, and most vehicle accuracy-on-the-move normalized to 0.5, I don't think we need to overdo it with OST Panther moving accuracy. Otherwise the unit will become uncounterable in a run-and-gun mode.

- Yes, at some point the Stug will need some light nerfs too (e.,g TWP, popcap, but maybe get a cheaper MG)

In fact, it is already possible to build all tiers, on 1vs1, if the match is balanced. As always the problem with Ostheer T4 isn't its cost but the fact Ostheer is on the backfoot all the game long before reaching it.
I have been able to build all tiers, to build a Pz4 and then going T4/panther without any problem if I secured my fuel well enough and my opponent wasn't using OP units vs me wiping my squads in no time.

Ostheer T4 has always been the cherry on the cake, nothing that need to be build any game or should be reachable any game. The main issue with Ostheer is its lack of light tanks and a T3 where lie a useless Pz4, An Ostwind too easily counterable by the infantry and a Stug too good for its price.

Imo, I would take the problem the exact opposite way.

-1 Maybe ajust some stats on the Ostheer panther so it hit a bit more its targets.
-2 Make Ostheer T3 the must to go with:
Stug with less AT performance: less AT overall damage but more range, move the stun shot vet0, give him a barrage like or more damage vs infantry. So its act more as a support unit which it is.
Pz4 should be the backbone of the Ostheer, make it cheaper in fuel like 110, improve its moving accuracy and that's it, increase its pen with vet so it doesn't end up useless when big cats are in.
Ostwind with more frontal armor, increase its frontal armor so it doesn't disappear in an instant vs zook/piat blobs. Or give him native passive suppression when firing not on the move.
-3 T4 expensive, something you build if the game last long and give you an edge on your opponent.

If they are already annoying comet and panthers, why improve the panther?. Because this will unbalance against the Soviets who do not have good turret tanks.

T34-85 ?

T34-85 ?

Locked behind DOC.

Do not underestimate 4 (i've seen way more than that) T34/76's though. The other day a swarm of these took out my vet 2 and vet 1 Panthers with the loss of only 1 T34. They can be incredibly mobile and take a fair number of hits from a panther.