Lol shocks.

You are right when the total hit chance surpasses the value 1, which is very rare though.
Hit chance = (weapon accuracy*modifiers*received accuracy)

If you think hit chances in cqb are usually 1, you are mistaken.

Try red cover as I mentioned with X125% accuracy modifier in many cases. (edited)


Shock troops firing on obers range close:
Hit chance
0.86*0.7= 0.60
Damage chance
0.60

Ober K98 firing on Shocks range close:

Hit chance
0.92*1= 0.92
damage chance
0.92*1/1.5= 0.61
(edited after request from moderator)

32mp to reinforce? well, i could see a buff here..

And guess what, the majority of small arms weapon have penetration of 1.

In addition at point blank range or on red cover most weapons have enough accuracy to have close to 100% chance to hit removing most protection from smaller target size, shock on the other hand with their armor still enjoin around 66% protection from it.

First of all that's false, unless you are accounting for accuracy buffs through abilities and/or accounting for veterancy buffs against units without it. Still that only applies to a limited pool of weapons. Most of the time, offensive vet gets offset by defensive vet.
You need a weapon with base accuracy higher than +0.70 combined with an accuracy modifier of +40% for that to happen.

You are also wording the Shocks protection wrongly (IMO). Cause it looks like they are protected 66% of the time whenever they are hit (by pen 1.0) when it's only 33% of the time.
If you had armor of 150 and pen of 100 you wouldn't say they are protected 2/3 of the times. I know your probably intention as to say they have "0.66 size/RA".

The correct part is that 90% of small arm weapons have pen of 1.0. LMG/BAR/MG gunners and some vehicle MGs are the ones with values higher than one.

Finally reminder that mathematically, accuracy values through vet are always higher to RA in order to keep the same value almost equal.
Ex: weapon with 0.5 acc. If it gets an +40% increase, it goes to 0.7. To offset this you need a -29% RA (from size 1). 0.7 * 0.71 gives you 0.497.

Try red cover as I mentioned with 125% accuracy modifier in many cases.

snip

You mean 1.25 or 25%

Why are you using the LMG when it has the worst performance at close. If you took the "Honor Kar" it has a value of 0.92.
0.92 * 2/3 = 0.613... Wow, such numbers. See, it's useless to make this calculations.

The discussion is pointless as accuracy is not the only compound on DPS. Armor on infantry is only kept on the game as a visual thing, as Shocktroops actually had an armor plate on them.

In case anyone wants the raw DPS formulas:

DPS being calculated as: Damage x Accuracy x (Shots per burst x Shots fired before reload / Total time to shoot including reload)

Total time to shoot including reload = ((Shoot burst duration + Fire aim time + Wind up + Wind down)*Shoots fire before reload) + (Cooldown duration * Reload frequency) + (Reload duration)

Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise
Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required

The first one is ideal DPS and the other lets you take into account opposing target.

It has been argued, in this thread, that Shock would be better off if they had RA then armor.

Lets try to explain with another example:

Shock troops have a armor 1.5. We replace that with an equivalent Target size
1/1.5=0.66 so we give the, target size 0.66.

Now the shock troops vet 3 charge vet 5 Volks grenadiers (with basic accuracy 75%/71%/68%) using road that allows them to move faster and close the distance faster.


Chance to hit far
0.68*1.25*1.3*1.15*0.83*0.66 = 1.05 = 0.70%
chance to damage (both hit and penetrate)
0.70%

Now the normal shock do exactly the same
0.68*1.25*1.3*1.15*83 = 1.55 = 100%
chance to damage
1*1/1.5 = 0.66

In this case Shock troops are better with armor than with smaller target size and it becomes better the closer they get (77% vs 66%).

(side notes:
1) it make little difference to me how modifier are presented as long they are being used right
2) I am responding to an argument that target size is better than armor so calculating DPS in not necessary)

The problems with Shocks is that:
- They are the most expensive squad in the game (Obers get a reinforcement cost discount)
- They need to hug an opponent in order to deal any damage. This makes them unable to use cover
- The enemy can clear the kill zone of Shocks by hitting retreat, and they're scot-free in a few milliseconds. Meanwhile Shocks may have bled hard to get there
- They have, literally, the worst grenade ability in the entire game
- They receive far worse veterancy bonuses than most other squads in the game (excluding Commandos). Given that they have so much difficulty closing-in, that's a death sentence

Speaking of death sentence, Shocks have absolutely no role in a world that is dominated by:
- cheap light vehicles
- STGs + insta-throw flame nade
- Bundle-nade PGrens

With respect to armour vs RA, of course RA is more important than armour. RA can help you dodge all sorts of things:
- When retreating vs a sniper
- Dodging those 3-5% accuracy hits from tanks (it's tiny, but it helps)
- Accumulating less suppression
- Receiving lower damage from higher-than-average pentrating sources (e.g., most like vehicle LMGs, etc)

The reason why Paratroopers work is because:
- They have way less reinforcement cost
- Thompsons have amazing range curve (not quite like STGs, but they're good)
- Paras have an extra hit-to-deal-more damage ability. Thus, when a flank does occur, it's deadly

PS: Next time you play with a USF ally, try picking up a BAR with your Shocks. They become deathgods, then.

The problems with Shocks is that:
- They are the most expensive squad in the game (Obers get a reinforcement cost discount)
- They need to hug an opponent in order to deal any damage. This makes them unable to use cover
- The enemy can clear the kill zone of Shocks by hitting retreat, and they're scot-free in a few milliseconds. Meanwhile Shocks may have bled hard to get there
- They have, literally, the worst grenade ability in the entire game
- They receive far worse veterancy bonuses than most other squads in the game (excluding Commandos). Given that they have so much difficulty closing-in, that's a death sentence

Speaking of death sentence, Shocks have absolutely no role in a world that is dominated by:
- cheap light vehicles
- STGs + insta-throw flame nade
- Bundle-nade PGrens

With respect to armour vs RA, of course RA is more important than armour. RA can help you dodge all sorts of things:
- When retreating vs a sniper
- Dodging those 3-5% accuracy hits from tanks (it's tiny, but it helps)
- Accumulating less suppression
- Receiving lower damage from higher-than-average pentrating sources (e.g., most like vehicle LMGs, etc)

The reason why Paratroopers work is because:
- They have way less reinforcement cost
- Thompsons have amazing range curve (not quite like STGs, but they're good)
- Paras have an extra hit-to-deal-more damage ability. Thus, when a flank does occur, it's deadly

PS: Next time you play with a USF ally, try picking up a BAR with your Shocks. They become deathgods, then.

maybe you talk to the Relic and they allowed a little fix to Shock Troops?

With respect to armour vs RA, of course RA is more important than armour. RA can help you dodge all sorts of things:
- When retreating vs a sniper
- Dodging those 3-5% accuracy hits from tanks (it's tiny, but it helps)
- Accumulating less suppression
- Receiving lower damage from higher-than-average pentrating sources (e.g., most like vehicle LMGs, etc)

1)We are talking small arm not sniper where this little difference and on retreat is a very specialized occasion.

2)Most damage from the main gun of tanks comes from AOE not direct hits.

3)We are talking damage not suppression , shock have a smoke grenade that they should use vs HMGs.

4)coaxial and hull hmg have penetration of 1 only the pintal have more.

Its quite simple. Armour has the advantage against small arms that have over 100% accurancy on the range in consideration (excluding crits like sniper shots). Armour and RA are equal against all the other small arms that are not crits. In every other situation RA is better.

IMO they need either to get a lot cheaper, or their accuracy needs to get a lot higher (para thompsons can do damage from a fair distance, you don't need to hug).

Another thing that could be done is making them get a lot less supression so they become better at moving around the field, but I don't know if that would work well.

But right now they are ridiculously bad, even grens can beat them up if they charge with no cover. I remember the last game jove went shock rifle and his shocks were just getting beaten by them.

Another funny thing is how kubels just melts shocks, you can vet a kubel pretty fast if you keep chasing them around.

Right now the only real strategy on using shocks is keeping a cons squad following him so you can keep merging while you push, otherwise they are only effective on the defense.

maybe you talk to the Relic and they allowed a little fix to Shock Troops?

+1000000

Actually it is the thompson that is broken having too much dps at ranges up to 20 and not the PPsh.

Thompson has around X 80% of the MP44 dps at range 20 while it has X 145% of the MP44 DPs at range 10 making too good ta range 20 which should be considered mid to far.

Smg should not a have a flat DPS curve from range 10 to 0 like Thompson has but should actually improve DPS the closer one get to range 0.

In addition comparing weapon upgrades weapon and default weapon is rather misleading.

Actually it is the thompson that is broken having too much dps at ranges up to 20 and not the PPsh.

So the Thompson is the reason why shocks suck?

Received accuracy is better than armor? seriously? Armor is much better than received accuracy

Nope.

Almost all MGs have penetration higher than 1. So what do you prefer when standing in front of tank MG or Grens or Obers etc etc? Armor 1, when all of these have penetration 1.10 or 1.80 or high rec. acc??

Nope.

Almost all MGs have penetration higher than 1. So what do you prefer when standing in front of tank MG or Grens or Obers etc etc? Armor 1, when all of these have penetration 1.10 or 1.80 or high rec. acc??

I have already answered that hull mg and coaxial mgs have penetration of 1 it is the pintal that have more.

Shock troops should not be standing in front of a tank in the first place.

So the Thompson is the reason why shocks suck?

Continuing to buff units to WFA levels is a step in the wrong direction, it makes the fights last less, becoming more rng and less tactical.

Unit should be brought down to EFA levels and not the other way round.

In addition comparing a default weapon with weapon upgrade is misleading, if one compares most default weapons with upgraded weapons one will see that their are inferior.

And shock troops squad do not suck, they have one highest DPS up to range 10 while having some of the highest EHP.

I have already answered that hull mg and coaxial mgs have penetration of 1 it is the pintal that have more.

Shock troops should not be standing in front of a tank in the first place.

I think he ment HMGs.

I think he ment HMGs.

So what do you prefer when standing in front of tank MG

DPs of grenadier squad 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS

Armor--16.6--14.6--13.2--11.8
TS-----15.6--13.7--12.3--11.3

DPs of grenadier squad vet 2 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS

Armor--22.5--20.5--18.5--16.5
TS-----21.8--19.1--17.3--15.8

DPs of grenadier squad vet 2 vs red cover 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS
Armor--24.2--22.5--21.2--19.8
TS-----27.3--23.9--21.6--19.7


One also has to keep in mind that shock PPsh lose not DPS up to range 10 so they do no have to hug the enemy, actually there is little reason to move closer to 10.

They also have some of the best modifier on the move.

expensive piece of ****. just a price decrese. and not JUST some 15 mp bull.

either 90-100 mp

-OR-

30-50 mp and a rediction of 3-4 mp reinforce.

DPs of grenadier squad 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS

Armor--16.6--14.6--13.2--11.8
TS-----15.6--13.7--12.3--11.3

DPs of grenadier squad vet 2 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS

Armor--22.5--20.5--18.5--16.5
TS-----21.8--19.1--17.3--15.8

DPs of grenadier squad vet 2 vs red cover 3S K98 + 1 lmg 42 vs 1,5 armor and 0.66 TS
Armor--24.2--22.5--21.2--19.8
TS-----27.3--23.9--21.6--19.7


One also has to keep in mind that shock PPsh lose not DPS up to range 10 so they do no have to hug the enemy, actually there is little reason to move closer to 10.

They also have some of the best modifier on the move.

So in other words, armor is slighly better vs LMG, but at the same time useless vs HMG and mounted MGs, which makes in obsolete mechanism.
So, what's better - armor which gives just a slighlty better protection vs LMGs or RA which gives better protection against all small arms?

So in other words, armor is slighly better vs LMG, but at the same time useless vs HMG and mounted MGs, which makes in obsolete mechanism.
So, what's better - armor which gives just a slighlty better protection vs LMGs or RA which gives better protection against all small arms?

Check this post.

Its quite simple. Armour has the advantage against small arms that have over 100% accurancy on the range in consideration (excluding crits like sniper shots). Armour and RA are equal against all the other small arms that are not crits. In every other situation RA is better.

At vet 0 it doesn't matter unless you are somehow staying on red cover against specific units (mostly rifles weapon based with high accuracy such as Gren/Ober/Storm/Guard/Paras).
Once you get vet2/3 (or more for OKW) and you hit accuracy bonuses or you are using certain abilities which improve it, you might get over 100% accuracy (mostly at close/mid range). Since the only armor base infantry unit available for the common people (not sure if Assault Flamer PG are still around for some Dev) are Shocks, SU/UK/AEF are not worth mentioning. All cases are at near range where acc is higher. Bolded for the effective units at close range.

OKW
Sturmpios: vet 5 if they are fighting vet 0 Shock.
Volks: STG don't met the mark. Kar only at vet4 against vet 0 shock
Ober: IR STG don't met the mark. Their Kar has the highest value on the game (.81/.92). Once they hit vet 2 they will pass vet0 Shocks, even at far. Against vet2 shocks at near they will still pass 100% accuracy.
Falls: nope
PF: Kar at vet2, G43 at vet4 against vet 0 shock.
JLI: G43 nope. Yep with Kar at vet3 against vet0 shock

OH:
Pio: nope
Gren: Kar at vet 2 against vet0 shocks. Nope for G43/LMG
PG: nope for Mp44. Vet 3 G43 against vet 0 shock
Osstruppen: nope when out of cover. When in cover they always hit (if the bonus is actually 300%)
AG: nope
Storm: kar at vet 2 vs vet0 shocks, nope on g43/STG
ArtyOff: kar/luger vet3 vs vet0 shock.

Other cases which helps on surpassing 100%.
When fighting in red cover it's +25% acc.
OH: Ambush cammouflage, Arty officer, Medkit drop.
OKW: Valiant Assault, Sturm officer debuff, vet 5 PV, For the motherland