why imo Penal are flawed by design.

I honestly didn't mind too much of penals beating grens and Volks at all ranges, due to the lack of AT made them venerable to LV's and thats the risk/reward you took to go t1, but now you've got some modders that have come in and gave them PTRS which has just screwed everything up.

I would have left penals as they are with powerful AI but increase the reinforce cost and time so they bleed you more.

I honestly didn't mind too much of penals beating grens and Volks at all ranges, due to the lack of AT made them venerable to LV's and thats the risk/reward you took to go t1, but now you've got some modders that have come in and gave them PTRS which has just screwed everything up.

I would have left penals as they are with powerful AI but increase the reinforce cost and time so they bleed you more.

You would have to remove merge for that work. Merge nullifies the bleed of Penals...

1) If one wants both units to be used they have to adjust both, else only one of the will be built. Each units need to have something to bring to table, a different role or utility and ideally they perform better together. So a defensive conscripts and an offensive Penal seems to be a change to right direction.

2) The target size of conscripts 1.087 while the difference in cost and time is around 25% merge works. I always leave conscript with 2-1 models in base and use it to reinforce Penal when they retreat.

3) Penal according to the balancing team are modeled after Pg. They where also mirror units in the early stage of the game. They are both semi elite stock infantry.

Penal are nothing like assault Grenadiers, assault grenadier need to close to gain an advantage Penal will beat grenadier and VG at long and at any range. And that is one of their major issue, contrary to other core infantry they are not balanced in respect to enemy infantry as it was done in September 9th, 2014 patch for every core infantry...

1- Because messing with conscripts is not gonna bring more issues and QQ than what we have now with Penals. Conscripts are deemed weak but they are still been built on a 2:1 ratio against Penals/Maxims. Problem of the later, is not how the unit should/could perform but rather spammability.

2- Sorry but that's ineffective as you are playing with 1 less squad and you have constant pop been occupied doing nothing.

3- Sorry to burst your bubble but too many things have changed since September 2014 and no longer hold true. IS doesn't beat Volks/Grens at all ranges if they are in cover? Volks against conscripts? Rifles against gren? I'm not talking about cost effectiveness but you can't expect to beat 1v1 something which have a cost disparity.
Also Penals are NOT CORE INFANTRY and shouldn't been.

PD: again, stop bringing merge as the SU savior tool because it makes your point look like a joke. You are just gonna convert on Nullist 2.0 (older users might remember). Merge hasn't been an issue on 2013 nor it will be in 2017.

Enemy at the Gates was a fictional movie, not a factual documentary. Everything you saw there was made up with the exception of a few names.

Do you really feel that a movie is basis for factual debate? You're like the girl who said "I watched a documentary about Titanic but they got it all wrong, they didn't even mention Rose and Jack!"

Let's be honest here, your name suggests you're Russian.

1- Because messing with conscripts is not gonna bring more issues and QQ than what we have now with Penals. Conscripts are deemed weak but they are still been built on a 2:1 ratio against Penals/Maxims. Problem of the later, is not how the unit should/could perform but rather spammability.

2- Sorry but that's ineffective as you are playing with 1 less squad and you have constant pop been occupied doing nothing.

3- Sorry to burst your bubble but too many things have changed since September 2014 and no longer hold true. IS doesn't beat Volks/Grens at all ranges if they are in cover? Volks against conscripts? Rifles against gren? I'm not talking about cost effectiveness but you can't expect to beat 1v1 something which have a cost disparity.
Also Penals are NOT CORE INFANTRY and shouldn't been.

PD: again, stop bringing merge as the SU savior tool because it makes your point look like a joke. You are just gonna convert on Nullist 2.0 (older users might remember). Merge hasn't been an issue on 2013 nor it will be in 2017.

1)Making conscripts defensive infantry will not create any problem instead it solves allot. Again units need different roles and utility to have a place in the build order. Else one will be used over the other. And that is how Ostheer work Pgs offensive Gren defensive...

2)Try it you might find that it not, 2 conscript have a POP of 2 and allow other infantry to return to the battlefield in matter of seconds...Actually not having conscript to merge to Penals or Guards is an inefficient way to play...

3)IS weakness is out of cover and on the move they are also weak vs mid sort units Penal are not.In addition Soviet and Ostheer are far better designed than UKF and it should be UKF that change toward them and not the other way around. In addition IS sue the same type of weapon bolt action so it make more sense that unit equipped with the same type of perform according to their price..

Infantry relationship have changed less than you think from September patch (rifles vs grens and vols vs cons remain mostly same for the first minutes of the game) but that is not the point. In that patch unit where balanced against each other not in the void, and that is correct way to do it.

If the issue of Penal is cost lower the cost...

They may not been the "mainline infantry" but they are core infantry and they will belong as they a large part of a Soviet army. They probably become a even larger part of the Soviet army in the WBP. And they can be a large part of the army because the hit the field before minute 1...contrary to Pgs or other elite/semi elite infantry.

4) I did not claim merge to be an issue the ability is fine, I simply pointed out that increasing reinforcement time and cost for Penal has limited affect. The more you increase them more effective merge becomes...

Let's be honest here, your name suggests you're Russian.

And yet he is right as opposed to you. Why would you even call him and his nationality out? Should your nick be permanently renamed to the glorious 'we wuz ww2 victors n sheet' murrican or should you just stop posting?

Penals are no where near as good in as you make them out to be in theory. Penals will get hard countered by Panzer Grenadiers, which also now vet up easier, and HMG teams since Penals have no longer have oorah.

If you are finding Penals are overpowered in your WBP games, please post us the replays so I can take a look.

Uhm, penals are also on the field for at least 5 minutes before the pgrens show up, this means they will be vetted by the time pgrens do show up. Lets say you spam penals, then there is nothing your pgrens will be able to do until they themselves reach vet 2 or 3..

And yet he is right as opposed to you. Why would you even call him and his nationality out? Should your nick be permanently renamed to the glorious 'we wuz ww2 victors n sheet' murrican or should you just stop posting?

Silly Americans eh!

Uhm, penals are also on the field for at least 5 minutes before the pgrens show up, this means they will be vetted by the time pgrens do show up. Lets say you spam penals, then there is nothing your pgrens will be able to do until they themselves reach vet 2 or 3..

You whanna say at min 5-6 penals will be vet 3 ?

You whanna say at min 5-6 penals will be vet 3 ?

No, but at least vet 2. Thus that is why I said that your pgrens need to be at least vet 2 to compete and by the time these encounters happen, penals will reach vet 3.