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Balance for infiltration squads badly needed?

26 Dec 2016, 17:44 PM
#61
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1

Are we talking about live here? Because Falls are perhaps the most manpower ineffective call in squad ingame, and then a single AOE attack comes along and kill them. Hurr-durr.


Falls are fine, just other abilities in this commanders aren't hmmm so desirable.



But these 2 abilities would be still different. In one you get starfing runs and falls for munny and in second you get fall for MP. Also munnition ability need fixing because right now those planes are only visual (and supress a bit). Maybe making them as normal skillplanez with 1 strafe would be much better.



Partisans and stormtroops shouldn´t drop from sky to keep things historical. I think we agree :D


Keeping things historical at the end of the war (which okw represents) Germans didn't drop falls from the skies anymore.

Personally i would change the last ability or maybe add some AT strafes to it. This commander (with Falls) is basicly useless in teamgames.
26 Dec 2016, 21:13 PM
#62
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2016, 17:44 PMStark


Falls are fine, just other abilities in this commanders aren't hmmm so desirable.



Keeping things historical at the end of the war (which okw represents) Germans didn't drop falls from the skies anymore.

Personally i would change the last ability or maybe add some AT strafes to it. This commander (with Falls) is basicly useless in teamgames.


But then soviets should have 10x more t34/85 than axis have any tank and OKW would be completely useless because USA artyed and bombed whole shit of them.

Historical balance in coh2 means that game is balanced yet there are some core features of units from ww2 - like t76 is weaker than panther, paratroops dropping from sky, british having entranchement oriented army etc etc
26 Dec 2016, 22:56 PM
#63
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1



But then soviets should have 10x more t34/85 than axis have any tank and OKW would be completely useless because USA artyed and bombed whole shit of them.

Historical balance in coh2 means that game is balanced yet there are some core features of units from ww2 - like t76 is weaker than panther, paratroops dropping from sky, british having entranchement oriented army etc etc


Your second part of your comment just confirms what i texted before. Falls weren't dropping from the sky at the end of the war and they should be normally deployed like in vcoh1 (core feature of this unit from ww2).

We are getting off the topic :ot:

27 Dec 2016, 18:57 PM
#64
avatar of tightrope
Senior Caster Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 29

I support not being able to spawn them from enemy territory but can still spawn them from neutral or friendly as a first step.

Probably looking at starting with nades on cooldown as the next step if infiltration units are still OP after that.
27 Dec 2016, 22:29 PM
#65
avatar of Immoraliste

Posts: 50

All changes sound great.

Infiltration has been cheap cheese from the very start. Coh2.org has always been the only forum with any sanity... post this anywhere else and everyone would be shouting how great elite squad infiltration is and how instawipes are rewarding their skill.
28 Dec 2016, 00:18 AM
#66
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930



Yess ffs In team games they are especially potent coz In first mniutes of any match up is important to get better map control and position. So Its HMgs In buildings and Mortars. TO caunter this Axis do Indirect fire and Light vehicals. And All partisons do their job good Wiping team weapons and snare Light vehicals.

If there will be changes that Axis team weapon cannon be wiped at 2 CP is good. But Other shit stays Coz Light vehical have to go into enemy territory to clear the path for infantry that were stopped by HMGs and there the problem gonna stay with SHreckParty


I play v4 and v3 all the time, this never happened to me.

Also, its your fault for not checking enemy commanders before the start of the game.
28 Dec 2016, 01:14 AM
#67
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3029 | Subs: 3

All changes sound great.

Infiltration has been cheap cheese from the very start. Coh2.org has always been the only forum with any sanity... post this anywhere else and everyone would be shouting how great elite squad infiltration is and how instawipes are rewarding their skill.


ty :thumb:

Ofc also thanks to all the others who try to support me, either by agreeing with my ideas or try to give me better tips.
28 Dec 2016, 10:29 AM
#68
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

Maybe make partisans able to upgrade with the weapons of the first squad they attack for a reduced price?
28 Dec 2016, 17:15 PM
#69
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2016, 22:56 PMStark


Your second part of your comment just confirms what i texted before. Falls weren't dropping from the sky at the end of the war and they should be normally deployed like in vcoh1 (core feature of this unit from ww2).

We are getting off the topic :ot:



Actually, they did drop in the battle of the bulge. It was called Operation Stösser.
28 Dec 2016, 17:20 PM
#70
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278

My preferred solution (which is probably impractical) would be reverting the mine nerfs for infiltration squads only. There's a nice risk/reward curve in that dynamic-sure you might get a cheesy squad wipe, but if I've predicted where you're coming from you suffer karmic cheesy justice.
28 Dec 2016, 20:53 PM
#71
avatar of JackDickolson

Posts: 181

Great poll man.



But I disagree with some stuff. Aside from commandos, falls and AT-zans, I think the other teleportation specialists are okayish.


And we should have in mind that camouflage now is a totally different thing than it used to be (assuming the change goes live, which most likely will).
28 Dec 2016, 22:45 PM
#72
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

I think all what is needed is changing infiltration commados to glider commados, make falls come from sky and make partisans only deplyable in your/neutral sectors + nerfing AT partisans a bit by increasing price or something.

By this way all abilities have counters and thust can be avoided.

If you cannot respond to glider flying 20 second in the air or to plane comming from enemy HQ and then slow drop its your fault to not reatreat weakened squads/sniper.

Also you have option to counter partisans by making strong assaults into enemy territory and not going there with weakened sqauds.
29 Dec 2016, 03:11 AM
#73
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Dec 2016, 17:15 PMWygrif
Actually, they did drop in the battle of the bulge. It was called Operation Stösser.


People hear that there were no large scale drops and assume they stopped them completely. They just stopped doing drops like Crete or Normandy. Small drops were still done, though rarely. One of the reasons drops weren't done often was because the parachute harness made it impossible to carry a weapon, so weapons were dropped in a separate crate. Many dropped with only a pistol or grenades, many dropped unarmed.
29 Dec 2016, 05:09 AM
#74
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1


.


Change partisans to 200 or keep at 210, make reinforcement costs lower (Not sure how much reduction though).
29 Dec 2016, 06:40 AM
#75
avatar of Pluralitas

Posts: 70

My preferred solution is to have a call in delay with a count down timer like those on active abilities like rapid conscription but you can call-in even on occupied buildings. After the timer runs out then the unit spawn. If the house was occupied when the timer ends but the house is occupied then it spawns at the base like shocks does.

This makes cheese wipe still possible in long retreat paths abeit harder and players can counter it by "escorting" your retreating unit by occupying those in the retreat path.

This delay should apply to all call-ins IMO and works like build time

29 Dec 2016, 08:31 AM
#76
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

That's a good option. Partisans will require a cost recalibration regardless (they are definitely NOT worth 35MP per model); it's the dirt-cheap MP price that makes them an overkill.

Other alternatives are:
- Give a delay between issuing the infiltration command, and the squad actually spawning (say 20 seconds)
- Make the squad spawn with crap weapons, and they regain their default weapons after a delay has elapsed

Time delay not a good solution, because you're just delaying the heavy alpha strike wipe damage to a later point.
29 Dec 2016, 09:05 AM
#77
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17


Time delay not a good solution, because you're just delaying the heavy alpha strike wipe damage to a later point.


Maybe.

On the other hand, you have no guarantee that:
- The building will not be garrisoned 20 seconds into the future (which means lose your spawn)
- That your AT partysans won't be facing pgrens when they exit the door
- That your infiltration squad will not spawn right on top of a tank that's going to crush-wipe them to oblivion
29 Dec 2016, 09:18 AM
#78
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

None of those scenarios have anything to do with the large wipe alpha damage, which is the problem. So they can be ignored for this scenario.

Changes to their grenades will be the most efficient ones to make.
29 Dec 2016, 15:37 PM
#79
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3029 | Subs: 3

I support not being able to spawn them from enemy territory but can still spawn them from neutral or friendly as a first step.

Probably looking at starting with nades on cooldown as the next step if infiltration units are still OP after that.


This is a good way to go imo.

Either this or grenade cooldown + crap weapons at start but without "only in certain territory spawn".. these 2 options are my favorites :thumb:
30 Dec 2016, 09:52 AM
#80
avatar of Mirdarion

Posts: 283



This is a good way to go imo.

Either this or grenade cooldown + crap weapons at start but without "only in certain territory spawn".. these 2 options are my favorites :thumb:


No, the grenade cooldown should be implemented in any case. If weapon upgrades were to be implemented, their ammunition cost would need a significant amount of work though - Stormtroopers with their current upgrade costs are one the worst units at their manpower bracket, and that is with their call-in nature in mind (meaning that if the call-in nature were to be changed to friendly territory only, they would lose more usability than most other infiltration units).

That said, the work to fine-tune the ammunition costs for those upgrades would be a worthwhile investment, as it would keep the flavour and utility of these units while making them more tolerable.
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