Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.3 Update

See, I'd argue that's an issue with commanders and Soviet tier design, not penal battalions

I completely agree. Unfortunately CoH2 is full of issues caused by changes in the initial design done very early in the game's lifespan. Guards and Shocks used to replace Penals (which, granted, would probably have its own set of problems), and if you look at early Soviet commanders it seems that the great majority of them were intended to have either of the elite infantry units available. Then people cried for greater commander ability diversity. Most (or all?) call-ins used to be built from tier structures. They changed that, and we had call-in meta for ages before they partially went back to that idea. A lot of the later problems the game had were due to this indecisive and possibly rushed early development, IMO.

But you have to put yourself in the balance team's position. They've said multiple times that they are limited in what they can do, and are doing their best to leave the game with a large number of viable strategies, considering that this patch will come out in February (if not later), and God knows when the one after that will be.

I don't need to try it though. What they're failing to understand is in COH, not every building needs to counter every other building. Not every unit needs to have 20 abilities and sub classes. If you go heavy T1 and you allow your opponent fuel to get a vehicle before you get AT you SHOULD be punished. Every tier is not a damn swiss army knife. This is not balancing this changing game mechanics to your personal taste.

+1000

When are you going to nerf stug e ? Now it is too efficient for 7CP unit without tech.

Cost like half of brumbaar, works as half of brumbaar, comes sooner and without tech.

As I already pointed out, this unit wasnt nerfed and stall ins will be used even more

Building the 251 FlakHT requires the player to first research Field Medics

I understand the reasoning behind this but it just doesn't make sense that researching medics unlocks a halftrack. Maybe rename the unlock or rethink the halftrack role.

make penal cost 370 and give them armor upgrade

I can't agree with penal changes. 3rd PTRS on T4 is exactly when it is not needed any more, molotov is a nice idea but at the moment the ability is really bad and AT satchel will be even harder to his as its now enough to drive off its tiny range, no skill shots available like before.

T1 was originally designed to be played with an elite infantry, specifically guards. However, this prevents any commander without elite infantry from being part of the meta and it makes it hard to balance the game around. By adding a lite AT option you open the door to more commanders while preventing Soviets from getting rewarded for going T1 if they make a mistake.

Right now penals have some insane bonuses and they still aren't used every game, which means when they receive their nerfs they will be even more unattractive. The tier has to provide at least a modicum of AT since otherwise penals need to function as an elite infantry unit (you only get 1 or at most 2), but not dominate the early game.

If you think PTRS penals are outrageous you need to provide a functional way to balance the meta.

In fact all tiers currently have access to some form of light AT except Soviets. Wehr: AC, pak, PGs in T2 and grens in T1, USF: M20 w/ zooks, AA HT as light AT, Brits: 6-pdr. So the only unusual one is Soviet because if you go T1 then you end up in a place where if you don't win big early you lose. This means penals have to be extremely powerful, and it is boring to watch as it steam roles everything early. Instead provide more depth by allowing the game to continue on with more balanced play.

T1 was originally designed to be played with an elite infantry, specifically guards. However, this prevents any commander without elite infantry from being part of the meta and it makes it hard to balance the game around. By adding a lite AT option you open the door to more commanders while preventing Soviets from getting rewarded for going T1 if they make a mistake.

Right now penals have some insane bonuses and they still aren't used every game, which means when they receive their nerfs they will be even more unattractive. The tier has to provide at least a modicum of AT since otherwise penals need to function as an elite infantry unit (you only get 1 or at most 2), but not dominate the early game.

If you think PTRS penals are outrageous you need to provide a functional way to balance the meta.

In fact all tiers currently have access to some form of light AT except Soviets. Wehr: AC, pak, PGs in T2 and grens in T1, USF: M20 w/ zooks, AA HT as light AT, Brits: 6-pdr. So the only unusual one is Soviet because if you go T1 then you end up in a place where if you don't win big early you lose. This means penals have to be extremely powerful, and it is boring to watch as it steam roles everything early. Instead provide more depth by allowing the game to continue on with more balanced play.

I generally agree with you but mind that you have a mistake there. Counting grens as AT for T1 and not counting the cons for soviet T1 is a not a good way to think. Somebody will sooner or layer say it's just bullshit what you said. On the other hand, wehr long T1 has better AT than soviet T1 opening becouse of tellers. Soviet mines are good, but they can't one shot a LV so they are not helping in the early game as much as tellers.

251 locked behind medics wtf?

Its good too see some experimentation with t1 but you guys are seriously losing your heads on it

T1 was originally designed to be played with an elite infantry, specifically guards. However, this prevents any commander without elite infantry from being part of the meta and it makes it hard to balance the game around. By adding a lite AT option you open the door to more commanders while preventing Soviets from getting rewarded for going T1 if they make a mistake.

Right now penals have some insane bonuses and they still aren't used every game, which means when they receive their nerfs they will be even more unattractive. The tier has to provide at least a modicum of AT since otherwise penals need to function as an elite infantry unit (you only get 1 or at most 2), but not dominate the early game.

If you think PTRS penals are outrageous you need to provide a functional way to balance the meta.

In fact all tiers currently have access to some form of light AT except Soviets. Wehr: AC, pak, PGs in T2 and grens in T1, USF: M20 w/ zooks, AA HT as light AT, Brits: 6-pdr. So the only unusual one is Soviet because if you go T1 then you end up in a place where if you don't win big early you lose. This means penals have to be extremely powerful, and it is boring to watch as it steam roles everything early. Instead provide more depth by allowing the game to continue on with more balanced play.

No, that is just the COH2 way. People forget you can tech T2 and get a ZiS if you need to, they're just used to clicking the lazy buttons of Elite Inf docs.

Wehr T1 has no AT.

USF has no AT unless you TECH zookas which is a fuel/tech and muni cost. So technically not just T1.

UKF has to tech to 6 pounder AT guns.

OKW does have the raketen and Sturm pios but yet they struggle with AT more than any other faction in the game since both are kinda shit.

Soviets can get T2 right at the start and build a ZiS for no fuel at minute 1 if they want. Then have access to what is considered one of the most useful MG's in the game as well as Cons with AT nades should they want them. Also the best healing in the game for the least cost. T1 has 2 man snipers which are super powerful on their own, along with the M3 which is also useful. Now, with all of this already quite strong early game options does anyone think that Penals need PTRS or that Soviets need AT in T1? You're out of your minds.

i agree with people's problem with 251 flak halftrack. i really do not think it should get more expensive (indirectly).

The reasoning do not make sense. I play 2v2 USF a lot and when I go for LT, I KNOW I will be lacking in AT so I go for fast USF AA HT and/or Bazookas and get 2 of them on rear ech at least. There is nothing wrong with LT tier when you have AT option always available behind 150mp and 15fu.

I also have to agree with Budwise that there is little justification for AT in T1. FFS they can get a really good ATG for 160mp and 20fu! that is comparable to USF's weapons rack upgrade.

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i think we should explore more of "high risk high reward" vision for T1. and part of high risk can be delayed T2 and the ATG relative to your enemy's tech because you could not put too much pressure.

I don't like what Penals are becoming. They're looking less and less like an alternative / support for Conscripts, and more like a replacement.

No, that is just the COH2 way. People forget you can tech T2 and get a ZiS if you need to, they're just used to clicking the lazy buttons of Elite Inf docs.

Wehr T1 has no AT.

USF has no AT unless you TECH zookas which is a fuel/tech and muni cost. So technically not just T1.

UKF has to tech to 6 pounder AT guns.

OKW does have the raketen and Sturm pios but yet they struggle with AT more than any other faction in the game since both are kinda shit.

Soviets can get T2 right at the start and build a ZiS for no fuel at minute 1 if they want. Then have access to what is considered one of the most useful MG's in the game as well as Cons with AT nades should they want them. Also the best healing in the game for the least cost. T1 has 2 man snipers which are super powerful on their own, along with the M3 which is also useful. Now, with all of this already quite strong early game options does anyone think that Penals need PTRS or that Soviets need AT in T1? You're out of your minds.

Not really.

Going T1 and T2 in early game is huge MP cost, especially if you consider medics and molos/at nades.

Wehrmacht has AT. 1 - panzerfaust 2 - teller mine

USF has AT. 1 - M20 mine and single zook 2 - AAHT which can hold LVs 3 - vet 1 AT Nades

UKF has pounder but that's linear teching so no issue here.

OKW has plenty options.

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Still PTRS is shit solution IMO.

I don't like what Penals are becoming. They're looking less and less like an alternative / support for Conscripts, and more like a replacement.

Well, we cannot touch Conscript at the moment so we cannot focus on their role as being durable and cheap utility meat shields.

They'd probably get cheaper reinforce with veterancy -maybe not with upgrades could be ridiculous given PPsH Cons are actually good- so that you need to kill 2-3 Conscripts to pay back for every model you lose.

No, that is just the COH2 way. People forget you can tech T2 and get a ZiS if you need to, they're just used to clicking the lazy buttons of Elite Inf docs.

Wehr T1 has no AT.

USF has no AT unless you TECH zookas which is a fuel/tech and muni cost. So technically not just T1.

UKF has to tech to 6 pounder AT guns.

OKW does have the raketen and Sturm pios but yet they struggle with AT more than any other faction in the game since both are kinda shit.

Soviets can get T2 right at the start and build a ZiS for no fuel at minute 1 if they want. Then have access to what is considered one of the most useful MG's in the game as well as Cons with AT nades should they want them. Also the best healing in the game for the least cost. T1 has 2 man snipers which are super powerful on their own, along with the M3 which is also useful. Now, with all of this already quite strong early game options does anyone think that Penals need PTRS or that Soviets need AT in T1? You're out of your minds.

Indeed it is the COH2 way, in that the game is quite a bit different than COH1. While I prefer COH1 I have to work with what I have.

T1 on Wehr absolutely has lite AT, in the faust, or as Australian pointed out the teller mine. Lite AT meaning that the unit can slow a mechanized unit and buy time until a suitable answer is developed. Fausts for instance buy time until the AC can arrive and keep them back or hunt them down.

If someone went T1 and had to go T2 then you set up a situation where teching is linear or T1 is never used because it costs twice as much as T2. The penals with PTRS are not strictly early game. Since they require a large munitions investment they are late-early, early-mid game, and you probably won't want to go with them unless you specifically give up on getting hard AT. In this case you need to rely on commanders or some other trick to keep you going for your first vehicle. On top of that you give up your powerful AI squad, with vet targeted at that for some AT to hold the line.

I am not disputing the power of T1, in that it has utility, but forcing it to play without any back up plan makes it such a high risk playstyle it is unlikely to be used. PTRS penals may not be perfect but I haven't heard too many other good ways to make T1 attractive once penals are nerfed.

I did leave off Soviet Cons with AT nades, which certainly are there, and should be considered as well.

I don't think we should automatically accept PTRS penals because the balance team is trying them, but I do think we should try them in the mod first.

Not really.

Going T1 and T2 in early game is huge MP cost, especially if you consider medics and molos/at nades.

Wehrmacht has AT. 1 - panzerfaust 2 - teller mine

USF has AT. 1 - M20 mine and single zook 2 - AAHT which can hold LVs 3 - vet 1 AT Nades

UKF has pounder but that's linear teching so no issue here.

OKW has plenty options.

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Still PTRS is shit solution IMO.

You know what, I do agree I hate the Teller Mine blobs meta and the Panzerfaust spam....


Said no one ever.


Comparing mines and fausts to PTRS and AT guns is quite a stretch.

You know what, I do agree I hate the Teller Mine blobs meta and the Panzerfaust spam....


Said no one ever.


Comparing mines and fausts to PTRS and AT guns is quite a stretch.

Well, you said Whre has no AT while it's not entire true.
Plus Wehr has linear teching so it shouldn't be even compared to SU in such way.

I mean, if it were up to me no faction would have T0 or T1 AT. It's all part of the timing game which is nearly non existent in COH2. You almost can't get out teched in this game because all the swiss army knife tiers going on on top of the doctrine call-ins.

When I say AT I mean AT guns or perpetually shoulder fired AT such as shreks or PTRS.

Well, we cannot touch Conscript at the moment so we cannot focus on their role as being durable and cheap utility meat shields.

They'd probably get cheaper reinforce with veterancy -maybe not with upgrades could be ridiculous given PPsH Cons are actually good- so that you need to kill 2-3 Conscripts to pay back for every model you lose.

I understand they're out of scope, my worry is that with Penals becoming a strong multi-role unit, by the time Conscripts become "within scope" they will need huge buffs to compete, or remain redundant unless Penals are rebalanced alongside Conscripts.

I'm sure you guys have a plan for the future, I'm just voicing my concerns as an outsider.

I don't need to try it though. What they're failing to understand is in COH, not every building needs to counter every other building. Not every unit needs to have 20 abilities and sub classes. If you go heavy T1 and you allow your opponent fuel to get a vehicle before you get AT you SHOULD be punished. Every tier is not a damn swiss army knife. This is not balancing this changing game mechanics to your personal taste.

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