M42 change ideas - Winter Patch 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4

I'm a fan of making it something like the T70's cannon on wheels, though it'll likely need target tables to drop its damage to prevent squad wipes.

If the M42 will be in T1 but we need think about: what abilities can be added.I suggest:
- 100 mm field gun M1944 (BS-3)
- Or the position of 85 mm air defense gun M1939 (52-K)

If the M42 will be in T1 but we need think about: what abilities can be added.I suggest:
- 100 mm field gun M1944 (BS-3)
- Or the position of 85 mm air defense gun M1939 (52-K)

Nothing new will be added.


Just replace with PTRS Cons and done.

Tho KV-2 for defensive doctrne would be great.

If the M42 will be in T1 but we need think about: what abilities can be added.I suggest:
- 100 mm field gun M1944 (BS-3)
- Or the position of 85 mm air defense gun M1939 (52-K)

Modders won't be able to add new models into the game. We have to reuse one of existing abilities. I would go for the ones that are used in only one commander like PTRS cons, KV-1 or KV-2.

Modders won't be able to add new models into the game. We have to reuse one of existing abilities. I would go for the ones that are used in only one commander like PTRS cons, KV-1 or KV-2.

Okay, then city defense commander need something that spends ammunition. I had a lot of ammunition, and a lot of mines

Okay, then city defense commander need something that spends ammunition. I had a lot of ammunition, and a lot of mines

I think it needs some kind of strong ability (like I said KV-2, PTRS con or so) to be labeled useful. Then, when there is more time to look at commanders, one of the abilites it has can be changed to use munitions or into something that uses it. Some kind or offmap or for mother russia possibly.

I made a poll long time ago about putting KV-2 in defensive doctrine. It was like 90% "Yay". I guess, the most agreeable poll ever

I made a poll long time ago about putting KV-2 in defensive doctrine. It was like 90% "Yay". I guess, the most agreeable poll ever

Yeah, it is perfect for this doctrine. But the urban defence shouldn't get the KV-2 when I think of it, too easy to overbuff that doctrine. It would be best if defensive tactics could get the KV-2 while urban defence only the KV-1.

GIVE CONS BETTER AT ABILITIES WITHOUT A DOCTRINE

There is no need to give penals better at abilities with their current ai abilities, since you can ALWAYS get CONS from the HQ and use them with AT nades and perhaps PTRS RIFLES????

How obvious is it lol??

Yeah, it is perfect for this doctrine. But the urban defence shouldn't get the KV-2 when I think of it, too easy to overbuff that doctrine. It would be best if defensive tactics could get the KV-2 while urban defence only the KV-1.

I've never said anything about urban + KV2, just defensive

I've never said anything about urban + KV2, just defensive

Sure, I just didn't want it to be understood as "replace m42 with kv2 in doctrines"

GIVE CONS BETTER AT ABILITIES WITHOUT A DOCTRINE

There is no need to give penals better at abilities with their current ai abilities, since you can ALWAYS get CONS from the HQ and use them with AT nades and perhaps PTRS RIFLES????

How obvious is it lol??

Buffing T2 opening is not intended, it is already a little too good.

Canister shot is not an AI 'weapon', just as a grenade is not an AI 'weapon' - it's an ability that costs munitions. So points 2 and 3 don't apply.

Not an AI weapon, but an AI ability. So, refer to your own highlighted point 2 and 3.

Cost 220 might actually make sense, as Smith pointed out, the cost of AT guns is one thing and the reinforcement price is another...

Smith is just geniunely confused and doesn't know what to do with the soviet T1, due to his lack of experience with soviets. We shouldn't confuse him further by throwing crazy ideas around.

plus it's the price Miragefla recommended after an even longer list of buffs that the ones I have here lol

He might have been trolling us, who knows. I mean, we gotta thank this guy and no one else for the current balance and mess

The 2 guys manning the weapon? No.
The 2/4 guys which are spread far away from the gun? Yes.

Now you realize why it's pointless ?

Well, then it's only %50 pointless

Ontopic:

You are entitled to your opinion that we should be ashamed of ourselves for even considering giving comparable AT options to both tiers, and experimenting with that in a balance preview mod. However, no matter how hard I try to scan your comments for useful feedback, all I see is ranting.

What is your proposed solution to the T1 problem?

In the most recent history, Soviet T1 has been through 3 different iterations
- Current iteration, where you have Flamer Penals, and Flamer Penals are really really worth it. Especially if you have guards/ your teammate can provide AT
- 1-year+ ago, when Luchs was locked behind T4, and 222 had 240HP with a need-to-buy autocannon upgrade. This meant that there was no light vehicle threat to worry about.
- Pre-buff Penals, where Soviets had to worry about 320HP auto-cannon 222 and T2 Luchs. That was a ~6-month period when Soviet T1 was not seen-of or heard-of.

Good observation Smith.

I will endeavour to give constructive feeback next time

You don't need a light vehicle hard [soft] counter in every single tier, come on people...

If the teching is non linear and you want said tier to actually be viable and for people to use it instead of skipping it every single game, then yes, you do. Sounds like you never bothered playing the preview if you think PTRS are a hard counter to anything. They're not, it's more about not getting completely pushed off the map when a light vehicles shows up without having to lock Commander specific units.

When I first made the video talking about PTRS Penals and I mentioned M42, I couldn't articulate my thoughts on it so I breezed over it. I have had a think about putting the M42 on Tier 1 as opposed to PTRS Penals and I have come up with the following issues, aside from the fact that its out of scope and probably not possible to get cleared by Relic anyway

• It's a boring overlap to just have a shitty version of the Ziss gun on Tier1, whether or not its got some gimicks to make it useful. PTRS Penals is a more unique approach that's completely different to the Ziss gun. This makes Tier1 actually feel unique instead of "It's Tier2 minus the Maxim." since you could argue that Sniper and Mortar fill a similar role. (dislodging and harassing static units)
  

• M42 won't scale into the late game where as PTRS Penals are mobile and still decent due to deflection damage. (Assuming that Penals can get a 3rd PTRS option later on in the game which we have coming for 1.3) If M42 gets deflection damage its then going to be the only AT gun in the game with deflection, where as all infantry-based AT weapons have deflection damage
  

• It will require the commanders with M42 on it to have a new ability, which will be more work and would put it even more out of scope of the patch
  

• PTRS Penals gives a lot of fun synergy with M3 and M5, which will help those units become more interesting because currently they're not very useful or at least one-dimensional. (M3 as Flamer Clown Car, M5 as Quad.)
  

• Having to build the M-42 instead of just upgrading PTRS to ward off light vehicles will make Tier 1 even weaker, and that's the opposite of what the concern is now of making people actually want to go Tier1 over Conspam and/or T2. Conspam gives better early game pressure and more AT utility, Tier 2 is more robust and gives better strategic flexibility (and Maxims are OP) Without Flamer Penals being so overpowered, and with Guards being nerfed, what reasons is there for players to want to go Tier1? The only real reason is the Sniper and better scaling of Penals compared to Conscripts.
  

• Whilst not necccesary buffing the anti tank of Soviets due to the heavy investment it requires, PTRS Penals give strategic flexibility to anti-tank in ways that all other factions have, since M42 will have the same counters and vulnerabilities as Ziss. In team games, Soviets can be in a very limiting spot late game if heavy Axis Tank destroyers nullify all their armour and Offmaps, Rocket Arty & Sturmtiger can constantly deny AT guns. With no infantry-based AT, Soviets have little options in these situations.
  

• It's a boring overlap to just have a shitty version of the Ziss gun on Tier1, whether or not its got some gimicks to make it useful. PTRS Penals is a more unique approach that's completely different to the Ziss gun. This makes Tier1 actually feel unique instead of "It's Tier2 minus the Maxim." since you could argue that Sniper and Mortar fill a similar role. (dislodging and harassing static units)

I disagree, because it fits the model of T1 being a micro approach (not the gameplay type of micro) and T2 being a macro approach. Sniper, M3, M42 are good at tackling one or 2 enemy things at a time. Maxims, mortars and Zis (with its bombard), can counter enemy groups. So the strategic choice is to counter at a micro or macro level. Makes total sense.

• M42 won't scale into the late game where as PTRS Penals are mobile and still decent due to deflection damage. (Assuming that Penals can get a 3rd PTRS option later on in the game which we have coming for 1.3) If M42 gets deflection damage its then going to be the only AT gun in the game with deflection, where as all infantry-based AT weapons have deflection damage
  

Infantry scaling in late game? Infantry get gibbed in late game no matter how much vet they have. So would an M42, so there's no difference there. Perhaps this is why we suggested M42 has retreat.

• It will require the commanders with M42 on it to have a new ability, which will be more work and would put it even more out of scope of the patch
  

Alright this is perhaps a valid point, but not the worst thing in the world. There may be benefit in calling in one M42 while building a second simultaneously, for example. And the commander change could be done later. Also, how often are M42 call ins used? Never, that's how often.

• PTRS Penals gives a lot of fun synergy with M3 and M5, which will help those units become more interesting because currently they're not very useful or at least one-dimensional. (M3 as Flamer Clown Car, M5 as Quad.)
  

Fair enough... but simply giving penals PTRS won't guarantee these vehicles become more useful.

• Having to build the M-42 instead of just upgrading PTRS to ward off light vehicles will make Tier 1 even weaker, and that's the opposite of what the concern is now of making people actually want to go Tier1 over Conspam and/or T2. Conspam gives better early game pressure and more AT utility, Tier 2 is more robust and gives better strategic flexibility (and Maxims are OP) Without Flamer Penals being so overpowered, and with Guards being nerfed, what reasons is there for players to want to go Tier1? The only real reason is the Sniper and better scaling of Penals compared to Conscripts.
  

To counter this argument, I would say, what's the benefit of having a penal squad that sucks at AI because it has PTRS? That's making T1 weaker at AI. In other words, your argument depends entirely on how you look at it. The recent Penal nerfs don't help your argument here either.

• Whilst not necccesary buffing the anti tank of Soviets due to the heavy investment it requires, PTRS Penals give strategic flexibility to anti-tank in ways that all other factions have, since M42 will have the same counters and vulnerabilities as Ziss. In team games, Soviets can be in a very limiting spot late game if heavy Axis Tank destroyers nullify all their armour and Offmaps, Rocket Arty & Sturmtiger can constantly deny AT guns. With no infantry-based AT, Soviets have little options in these situations.
  

Rocketarty and Sturm will be wiping penals just as easily as they will wipe M42.

When I first made the video talking about PTRS Penals and I mentioned M42, I couldn't articulate my thoughts on it so I breezed over it. I have had a think about putting the M42 on Tier 1 as opposed to PTRS Penals and I have come up with the following issues, aside from the fact that its out of scope and probably not possible to get cleared by Relic anyway

• It's a boring overlap to just have a shitty version of the Ziss gun on Tier1, whether or not its got some gimicks to make it useful. PTRS Penals is a more unique approach that's completely different to the Ziss gun. This makes Tier1 actually feel unique instead of "It's Tier2 minus the Maxim." since you could argue that Sniper and Mortar fill a similar role. (dislodging and harassing static units)
  

• M42 won't scale into the late game where as PTRS Penals are mobile and still decent due to deflection damage. (Assuming that Penals can get a 3rd PTRS option later on in the game which we have coming for 1.3) If M42 gets deflection damage its then going to be the only AT gun in the game with deflection, where as all infantry-based AT weapons have deflection damage
  

• It will require the commanders with M42 on it to have a new ability, which will be more work and would put it even more out of scope of the patch
  

• PTRS Penals gives a lot of fun synergy with M3 and M5, which will help those units become more interesting because currently they're not very useful or at least one-dimensional. (M3 as Flamer Clown Car, M5 as Quad.)
  

• Having to build the M-42 instead of just upgrading PTRS to ward off light vehicles will make Tier 1 even weaker, and that's the opposite of what the concern is now of making people actually want to go Tier1 over Conspam and/or T2. Conspam gives better early game pressure and more AT utility, Tier 2 is more robust and gives better strategic flexibility (and Maxims are OP) Without Flamer Penals being so overpowered, and with Guards being nerfed, what reasons is there for players to want to go Tier1? The only real reason is the Sniper and better scaling of Penals compared to Conscripts.
  

• Whilst not necccesary buffing the anti tank of Soviets due to the heavy investment it requires, PTRS Penals give strategic flexibility to anti-tank in ways that all other factions have, since M42 will have the same counters and vulnerabilities as Ziss. In team games, Soviets can be in a very limiting spot late game if heavy Axis Tank destroyers nullify all their armour and Offmaps, Rocket Arty & Sturmtiger can constantly deny AT guns. With no infantry-based AT, Soviets have little options in these situations.
  

I still think that penals PTRS upgrade is not a good idea. U said people goes for T-1 because penals with flamers were OP. So what is the reason for going T-1 now? I will have an option to upgrade penals with PTRS which r not good against infantry and can deal damage to light wehicles but can´t kill them. So why should I go for them? It´s a vaste of resources in my opinion. And there will be an option to upgrade them with 3rd PTRS. So what kind of infantry I will have in the late game? Conscripts, nerfted Guards, Shocktroops, Partisans? T-1 doesn´t need any AT weapon upgrade or AT gun in my opinion. Just make penals more interesting like AI weapon upgrade (ppsh, dp28) with some kind of ability. People will still build their strategies arround T-1 and commanders because commanders r a big part of COH2.

So what is the reason for going T-1 now?

Because Penals are superior to Conscripts, especially scaling wise (on an individual basis, but Con spam is very strong), Sniper is incredibly good on open maps and M3 is a nice sniper counter as well as an excellent way of aggressively clearly MG's from garrisons with Flamers. Overall, it's a more aggressive playstyle than Tier 2 which relies on Support weapons. Without any anti-tank, Tier 1 would be prevented from realising that aggressive potential.

We are also working on some more anti infantry utility for Penals in v1.3 to make them more desirable and flexible without making them necessarily stronger.

Realistically, T1 isn't so attractive at the moment because of how OP maxims are currently, but Maxims will definitely be getting nerfed next patch (if we get that far) which will make Tier1 a bit more attractive.

Because Penals are superior to Conscripts, especially scaling wise (on an individual basis, but Con spam is very strong), Sniper is incredibly good on open maps and M3 is a nice sniper counter as well as an excellent way of aggressively clearly MG's from garrisons with Flamers. Overall, it's a more aggressive playstyle than Tier 2 which relies on Support weapons. Without any anti-tank, Tier 1 would be prevented from realising that aggressive potential.

We are also working on some more anti infantry utility for Penals in v1.3 to make them more desirable and flexible without making them necessarily stronger.

Realistically, T1 isn't so attractive at the moment because of how OP maxims are currently, but Maxims will definitely be getting nerfed next patch (if we get that far) which will make Tier1 a bit more attractive.

Nerfing maxims and having some AI utility for Penals seems like a good choice to me. That will make T-1 a lot more attractive.