WinterBalance 1.2

To all people who cry for light-AT-gun in soviet T1 instead of PTRS penals:

this is only an option if penals get further nerfed. otherwise soviets would be too strong early game. PTRS penals is a good design because you have to choose between AI and AT. Light AT gun + regular penals would be too strong!

IF the balance team were to test a light AT gun I'd expect a nerf to penals.

Soviet T1 and T2 are so cheap that you can easily get both tiers.
OST has to rush for T2 for AT. why should soviets be able to build only T1 and then go T3? if the player decides to go T1 and faces massive light vehicle play he should be forced to go T2 next just like any other faction. (usf need to tech weapon racks which is roughly the same price / brits need to tech up for AT-gun or can go for piats now)
I like the PTRS penals because they are an option when facing against a single light vehicle (maybe even 2 depending on the vehicles) without choosing a commander for guards. The PTRS penals SHOULD NOT hard counter the light vehicles but simply stall for further teching (T2 for more AT or T3 for own vehicles) depending on the scale of enemy vehicle play.

I hope I explained my point understandably.

I see that it is very important that the time and energy put into implementing and testing penals PTRS be respected. However just because a lot of time has been sunk into testing PTRS penals doesn't mean it becomes any more valid or balanced an option on that virtue alone.

I get that the idea is to give Penal Battalions a sort of choice that mimics Panzergrenadiers'. That the unit must make a choice between built to fight infantry or built to fight vehicles.

The difference is that there is not a clear role change with Penal Battalions PTRS. A panzergrenadier squad with schrecks is an AT unit. It completely changes their utility.

A penal battalion with PTRS is not a strict AT unit no more than Guards are a strict AT unit. Even with AT Satchels penal battalions aren't an AT unit. It's not like panzerfausts make Grens or Volks an AT unit.

I don´t know if you played new PTRS penals or not, but if yes, then you would know that once you upgrade them with PTRS you almost lose 2 models against infantry. Penals PTRS deals only 10 DMG against infantry (current patch guards deals 33 damage, new patch guard deal 20 damage) and have poor accuracy like guards when they never were trained.

If you start losing models, you will soonly realise you have lost engangement because you have only 3,2,1 fighting people after lost models and 2 useless PTRS in infantry fights. So all in all they are not all that great against infantry.

They aren´t good against vehicles either, you need blob to take down anything bigger than medium tank and lights can either kite them because of their long aiming time (222, luchs) or supress them (fraptrack).

Any upgraded axis infantry (volks, grens) wipe floor with them when upgraded and also defeats them cos efficiently when axis squad isnt upgraded and penals are.


We gave penals PTRS to give player some chance to survive in tier1 and make tier1 more lucrative because right now you either spam guards or backtech to tier2 or die. Simply there is nothing that good to keep tier1 useful when soviets have mg + cons (whitch are not that worse than penals) and AT guns. Also tier1 player loses 180MP and engineer building time in beggining.

And If we don´t want to make tier1 cheesy tier with OP early game and trash lategame we must give it some kind of AT

AT Satchels accomplish a very different function, which is extremely beneficial to the unit but also gameplay in general.

The AT Satchels serve two purposes. First and foremost they act as a deterrent to vehicles rushing point blank into the squad that most all other infantry have access to in some form. Obersoldaten are the only other stock unit that is (sorta) helpless against vehicles. (They have that smoke grenade, but I've never seen it used on vehicles.) Shock Troops and Assault Grenadiers are the doctrinal ones.

The second purpose the AT Satchels provides is as an actual anti tank device. It is only really feasible on damaged and disabled vehicles, else it is a suicidal charge/chase. (And imagine that for penals.) It's important to note that anything that allows the AT Satchel to be useful requires utilizing units from HQ or other tiers. Any number of PTRS isn't going to make a difference in the feasible functionality of AT Satchels.

And THAT is a worthwhile feature to keep around for Penals: an ability that helps safeguard against the more cheesier of gameplay tactics that requires combined arms or clever maneuvering and positioning to fully utilize.

Also IS lack AT grenade (reliable). It deterrents only heavy and mediums rushing because of its long wind up time preventing it being used against fast moving targets.

In second part you sum it up pretty much. We wanted to give penals some sort of thing that keep them useful in lategame either as assault guns protection or soft tank counter if used with other abilities. We did this because penals with PTRS are joke in lategame

To all people who cry for light-AT-gun in soviet T1 instead of PTRS penals:

this is only an option if penals get further nerfed. otherwise soviets would be too strong early game. PTRS penals is a good design because you have to choose between AI and AT. Light AT gun + regular penals would be too strong!

IF the balance team were to test a light AT gun I'd expect a nerf to penals.

Soviet T1 and T2 are so cheap that you can easily get both tiers.
OST has to rush for T2 for AT. why should soviets be able to build only T1 and then go T3? if the player decides to go T1 and faces massive light vehicle play he should be forced to go T2 next just like any other faction. (usf need to tech weapon racks which is roughly the same price / brits need to tech up for AT-gun or can go for piats now)
I like the PTRS penals because they are an option when facing against a single light vehicle (maybe even 2 depending on the vehicles) without choosing a commander for guards. The PTRS penals SHOULD NOT hard counter the light vehicles but simply stall for further teching (T2 for more AT or T3 for own vehicles) depending on the scale of enemy vehicle play.

I hope I explained my point understandably.

+1 I was on the fence about this change until I read this post. I think he makes a lot of good points.

To give you an idea about what a hopeless team weapon looks like, try to imagine yourself, playing as OST and coming across 3 abandoned Soviet PM-41 mortars. Would you ever waste the manpower needed to recrew them? I bet not.

You probably wouldn't even bother destroying them, so that your enemy can waste more of their manpower to recrew them. M-42 shouldn't be such a hopeless unit.

Why are you talking about a hopeless team weapon with no intention of fixing it just before a patch as one of the guys repsonsible for it? It's not like it doesn't affect infantry scaling at all, which is in scope

I'm not nagging just genuinely curious

Even if PTRS Penals are weak, at least they allow the Soviet player to get some non-doctrinal handheld AT. Even barely anything is better than nothing. That already gives T1 an edge over T2.

Unless T1 units are really worth it, nobody will ever want to pick T1 to build a crappy M-42, when they could simply get Maxim & Zis instead.

Nobody wants to build a crappy AT gun so that they leave it abandoned later on.

To give you an idea about what a hopeless team weapon looks like, try to imagine yourself, playing as OST and coming across 3 abandoned Soviet PM-41 mortars. Would you ever waste the manpower needed to recrew them? I bet not.

You probably wouldn't even bother destroying them, so that your enemy can waste more of their manpower to recrew them. M-42 shouldn't be such a hopeless unit.

Thus, if you want to help making M-42 decent, open up a new brainstorming thread and get the community to contribute. Since M-42 should be weaker vs heavier tanks, at least it should compensate with utility.
- Avoid putting cheesy utility, like stun
- Designs without klingon cloaking fields are greatly appreciated

I'll start by mentioning that damage should go up to 100 (maybe even 135) to allow the gun to be a specialist light-vehicle killer, even if its penetration remains crappy.

Even if M-42 won't make it to T1, we could reuse the ideas for a potential commander rework in the future.

Firstly, why go for nerfed Penals with PTRS if I can go for maxim + zis?
I imagine that people would rather go for powerful AI Penals and M42 rather than medicore Penals with PTRS which aren't good AI, nor AT.

Secondly M-42 is not that crappy. I did with it over 10k damage many times in 2v2 games vs top ATs.

IMO the only thing it would need is vet ability which would increase penetration and/or damage for 30secs.

Firstly, why go for nerfed Penals with PTRS if I can go for maxim + zis?
I imagine that people would rather go for powerful AI Penals and M42 rather than medicore Penals with PTRS which aren't good AI, nor AT.

Secondly M-42 is not that crappy. I did with it over 10k damage many times in 2v2 games vs top ATs.

IMO the only thing it would need is vet ability which would increase penetration and/or damage for 30secs.

here is the problem:

T1 should not be better than T2 and give access to snipers/very early vehicle... if you want decent AT you need to tech T2 end of story! everything else would be too unbalanced!

EDIT:
I would also rather go Captain AND get a 50 cal. but I can't without airbourne commander! you cannot have everything in one tier. some basic AT for soviet T1 is needed and PTRS penals are a good idea!

good work on that balance team!

here is the problem:

T1 should not be better than T2 and give access to snipers/very early vehicle... if you want decent AT you need to tech T2 end of story! everything else would be too unbalanced!

And that's the thing. M-42 is nor decent AT, it's just to close the gap but it's still better thatn Penals with PTRS which stands completly agasint combined arms.

Firstly, why go for nerfed Penals with PTRS if I can go for maxim + zis?
I imagine that people would rather go for powerful AI Penals and M42 rather than medicore Penals with PTRS which aren't good AI, nor AT.

Secondly M-42 is not that crappy. I did with it over 10k damage many times in 2v2 games vs top ATs.

IMO the only thing it would need is vet ability which would increase penetration and/or damage for 30secs.

Because you haven't seen AI penals yet. That comes with v1.3.

The question, then, becomes how many PTRS penals you want to build to protect your T1 investment. It's the same question you would have to answer when it comes to how many M-42's you would be required to field, to overcome its crappiness.

With respect to the lategame, PTRS Penals are mobile, and can actually hurt tanks. M-42 is neither. Thus, by giving T1 mobile AT options allows it to further differentiate itself from T2, instead of "The tier with the crappy AT gun".

Because you haven't seen AI penals yet. That comes with v1.3.

The question, then, becomes how many PTRS penals you want to build to protect your T1 investment. It's the same question you would have to answer when it comes to how many M-42's you would be required to field, to overcome its crappiness.

With respect to the lategame, PTRS Penals are mobile, and can actually hurt tanks. M-42 is neither.

I stand opposite. M-42 can do something in late game. With vet 2 reload bonus it's even better.
Like I said, it's not ZiS, but I can always help a bit. 10k damage vs top ATs doesn't come from killing LVs.

You probably wouldn't even bother destroying them, so that your enemy can waste more of their manpower to recrew them. M-42 shouldn't be such a hopeless unit.

Thus, if you want to help making M-42 decent, open up a new brainstorming thread and get the community to contribute. Since M-42 should be weaker vs heavier tanks, at least it should compensate with utility.
- Avoid putting cheesy utility, like stun
- Designs without klingon cloaking fields are greatly appreciated

I'll start by mentioning that damage should go up to 100 (maybe even 135) to allow the gun to be a specialist light-vehicle killer, even if its penetration remains crappy.

Even if M-42 won't make it to T1, we could reuse the ideas for a potential commander rework in the future.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/58044/m42-change-ideas-winter-patch-1-2-1-3-1-4

To all people who cry for light-AT-gun in soviet T1 instead of PTRS penals:

this is only an option if penals get further nerfed. otherwise soviets would be too strong early game. PTRS penals is a good design because you have to choose between AI and AT. Light AT gun + regular penals would be too strong!

IF the balance team were to test a light AT gun I'd expect a nerf to penals.

Soviet T1 and T2 are so cheap that you can easily get both tiers.
OST has to rush for T2 for AT. why should soviets be able to build only T1 and then go T3? if the player decides to go T1 and faces massive light vehicle play he should be forced to go T2 next just like any other faction. (usf need to tech weapon racks which is roughly the same price / brits need to tech up for AT-gun or can go for piats now)
I like the PTRS penals because they are an option when facing against a single light vehicle (maybe even 2 depending on the vehicles) without choosing a commander for guards. The PTRS penals SHOULD NOT hard counter the light vehicles but simply stall for further teching (T2 for more AT or T3 for own vehicles) depending on the scale of enemy vehicle play.

I hope I explained my point understandably.

You forget, that different factions have different teching. Problem with t1 into t2 are price for t1 unit, when you go t2 its close to 500 mp to get at gun. Its not step by step teching like ostheer have or brit.
Cons at nade still are better, only combination with PTRS penals and cons or mines are good for penals. So where the logic, you still need tech at nade and use cons, so why i must use ptrs penals ? spend ammo for ptrs, spend fuel and MP for at nade cons ?

Why m42 must be for late game ? m3 are for late game ? kubel are for late game ? Why its can not be unit for 10 min ?

Because you haven't seen AI penals yet. That comes with v1.3.

The question, then, becomes how many PTRS penals you want to build to protect your T1 investment. It's the same question you would have to answer when it comes to how many M-42's you would be required to field, to overcome its crappiness.

With respect to the lategame, PTRS Penals are mobile, and can actually hurt tanks. M-42 is neither. Thus, by giving T1 mobile AT options allows it to further differentiate itself from T2, instead of "The tier with the crappy AT gun".

Are you also doing something with stug e in new patch ? Because right now it is good, but I think it is too good for call in unit that comes sooner than brumbaar and 2 are better in terms of AI than brumbaar.

And please don´t say it is weak against moving squads. Every sane player will approach with stug e and lmg grens or Pgrens together. And right now you have lose-lose situation like you had against USF mortar.
Your squads more from cover, lmg grens will kill them. Your squad stay in cover, stug will kill them.

Can I use this thread to report a bug?

Please correct me if this is already mentioned in the bug fix section of the mod notes, but:

Lower range on throwing grenades if surpressed does NOT affect the following units:

For sure:

- british commandos / Officer (gammon grenade)

- british artillery flare (maybe this is not a bug because it is intentional?)

- stormtroopers (bundled grenade) (Wehrmacht)

Not 100% sure about:

- OKW Infiltration grenades

- Fallschirmjaegers (OKW)

- Rangers and Paratroopers (USF)

We could. On the other hand it is more faithful to immersion if we have the projectile going through obstacles using arcs, rather than travelling through things to achieve the same effect.

nearly every direct fire projectile use tp_homing to avoid the collusion issue. projectile travelling through thing is just part of the game and honestly most people don't notice.

Trying to "fix" the quirk of terrain phasing projectile is just ignoring the reality of the game.

Can I use this thread to report a bug?

Please correct me if this is already mentioned in the bug fix section of the mod notes, but:

Lower range on throwing grenades if surpressed does NOT affect the following units:

For sure:

- british commandos / Officer (gammon grenade)

- british artillery flare (maybe this is not a bug because it is intentional?)

- stormtroopers (bundled grenade) (Wehrmacht)

Not 100% sure about:

- OKW Infiltration grenades

- Fallschirmjaegers (OKW)

- Rangers and Paratroopers (USF)

this one to : https://www.coh2.org/topic/58048/tactical-il-2-sturmovik-attack-bugged

People thought that Sturmpioneer panzerschrecks were going to be a perfect solution and be used consistently in competitive meta.

We gave penals PTRS to give player some chance to survive in tier1 and make tier1 more lucrative because right now you either spam guards or backtech to tier2 or die. Simply there is nothing that good to keep tier1 useful when soviets have mg + cons (whitch are not that worse than penals) and AT guns. Also tier1 player loses 180MP and engineer building time in beggining.

And If we don´t want to make tier1 cheesy tier with OP early game and trash lategame we must give it some kind of AT

AT Satchels. Done. Penals can't just be overrun by light vehicle rushes. Lategame AI viability untouched.

Also IS lack AT grenade (reliable). It deterrents only heavy and mediums rushing because of its long wind up time preventing it being used against fast moving targets.

Yeah, also PIATs.

People thought that Sturmpioneer panzerschrecks were going to be a perfect solution and be used consistently in competitive meta.



AT Satchels. Done. Penals can't just be overrun by light vehicle rushes. Lategame AI viability untouched.



Yeah, also PIATs.

schrecks are good solution, problem is cost. Once they were moved to expensive units there should have been 2 schrecks for 120 munnition cost - first one is unlocked after 1 tier placed, second after 2 tiers on field.



There is not problem overruning, problem is they have zero chance at all ranges, if you give them only satchels they still get rekted by lights because they can just keep distance and bleed them

Can I use this thread to report a bug?

Please correct me if this is already mentioned in the bug fix section of the mod notes, but:

Lower range on throwing grenades if surpressed does NOT affect the following units:

For sure:

- british commandos / Officer (gammon grenade)

- british artillery flare (maybe this is not a bug because it is intentional?)

- stormtroopers (bundled grenade) (Wehrmacht)

Not 100% sure about:

- OKW Infiltration grenades

- Fallschirmjaegers (OKW)

- Rangers and Paratroopers (USF)

Please open up a bug-report thread in the corresponding section. It's easier for me to keep track and solve bugs there, as they pop up.

There is not problem overruning, problem is they have zero chance at all ranges, if you give them only satchels they still get rekted by lights because they can just keep distance and bleed them

Penals can't use sight or shot blockers?

Do you try to chase light vehicles down with Shocks?