Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.1 Update

I am worried about Penals change. I agree, that T1 need something against light vechicle, but i don't think think PTRS is right solution.
1. For what i need now guards? Penals do their job.
2.1 Why i need to take Conscripts? Penals deal with infantry and vechicle better. Maybe only 1 squad for merge Penals
2.2 Why i need to take doctrine with PTRS for conscripts?
3. New meta - Shock troops with Penals?

Do you think about M-42 in T1? If you did, why you reject this idea?
P.S. Yes, i have played WBP 1.1.

PTRS penals don't really overlap with other PTRS units. Penal PTRS deals significantly less damage than other PTRSes (even conscripts).
- Guards; Guards simply pack a ton more firepower and have button
- Conscript PTRS: Conscripts retain their oorah even when upgraded. THey also cost a ton more, and are a lot more cost-efficient, have AT nades (and molotovs, lol). Also their PTRSes are a straight upgrade anti-infantry wise

Penal PTRSes are supposed to be, really, a last-ditch AT. They aren't cost efficient, just like upgrading M20 bazookas is not cost-efficient. It's just something to keep the tier viable.

PTRS penals don't really overlap with other PTRS units. Penal PTRS deals significantly less damage than other PTRSes (even conscripts).
- Guards; Guards simply pack a ton more firepower and have button
- Conscript PTRS: Conscripts retain their oorah even when upgraded. THey also cost a ton more, and are a lot more cost-efficient, have AT nades (and molotovs, lol). Also their PTRSes are a straight upgrade anti-infantry wise

Penal PTRSes are supposed to be, really, a last-ditch AT. They aren't cost efficient, just like upgrading M20 bazookas is not cost-efficient. It's just something to keep the tier viable.

Ok, thank you

I am expecting that the question to spring to everyone's minds is the following:
- Why only limit LMGs on Sappers
- Why not limit Bren LMGs on Tommies as well?

The short answer to that is that it would make Tommies suck way too hard, for their limited utility.

The more precise answer to this is that Brens are closer in performance to the DP-28 (37.5 munitions per DP-28) than the MG-42. What makes matters worse is that Tommies:
- Receive very little in terms of accuracy (Received accuracy is a sub-par stat for long-range units)
- Receive out-of-cover bonuses, which increase Cooldown Reload

To get a comparison between the LMGs, I mentioned, have a look at the following graph:


A more subtle point is that Tommy Bren guns are the most unreliable LMG in the game:
- 8-9 seconds reload time, compared to 3-5 seconds for all other LMGs
- The +40% reload time out-of-cover penalty can make it that Tommies can take up to 12.6 seconds reloading

Thus. To limit Tommy Bren guns to 1:
- We would have to buff Tommy Bren guns
- We would have to give something to Tommies

Although we had some plans about how to accommodate the change, the changes required went out-of-scope. Thus, these will have to be applied in a future patch.

Man, I have to take objection with your reasoning here. Did you ever wonder why the stats are imbalanced like this? Could it perhaps be because the two LMG axis squads are 4 men squads and the allies are either (eventually) 5 men or 6 men?

Similar reason why USF mortar should never have been equal to (let alone better than) OST mortar.

Sometimes I wonder...

This is always a question in coh.
If theres a dps increase by specialiced squads, by veterancy and a dps increase my sheer army value / Squad size. Whats comes first under which circumstances? it shouldnt be qualized at all, its more the role they play during the game and thats very different...

Man, I have to take objection with your reasoning here. Did you ever wonder why the stats are imbalanced like this? Could it perhaps be because the two LMG axis squads are 4 men squads and the allies are either (eventually) 5 men or 6 men?

Similar reason why USF mortar should never have been equal to (let alone better than) OST mortar.

Sometimes I wonder...

USF LMG has equal stats to the LMG-42.
- Are you arguing that double Brens are unfair?
- Or are you arguing that limiting Brens to 1, with no compensating buff (and Tommies being what they are) would be fair?

If you are trying to make a point, I am not sure what it is exactly.

Hey, guys, any thought about Wehr's Medkit's price? Could it be changed to 20 or 15 muni? That would increase nicely the usage, beyond the given 20 second buff

Just a random note: you can call down an allied supply drop (lend lease or industry) in the enemy's base.

Could be good for a QOL change

Then again, how would someone exploit that?

Just a random note: you can call down an allied supply drop (lend lease or industry) in the enemy's base.

It's propaganda to show the fascista that the Motherland provides to such an extent they can fucking their stuff give away to their enemies

It's propaganda to show the fascista that the Motherland provides to such an extent they can fucking their stuff give away to their enemies

New victory strike revealed

all you need is a matchbox

USF LMG has equal stats to the LMG-42.
- Are you arguing that double Brens are unfair?
- Or are you arguing that limiting Brens to 1, with no compensating buff (and Tommies being what they are) would be fair?

If you are trying to make a point, I am not sure what it is exactly.

I am arguing that the inequality in lmg stats is fair as there are other relevant stats which give them balance. So citing the worse Bren stats as reason to allow two of them is bogus logic.

m1919 is clearly not balanced, but it's doctrinal at least and usf need stronger infantry as (aside from Pershing) they have paper tanks. To use that as reason to allow double Brens is also bunk. If anything you could improve the Bren stats a little but if you do this, at least consider other indirect stats which factor into balance such as timing and squad sizing and the original faction concept.

Healing and arty flares

Grenadiers can now use their own medikits as for flares, unless you go Churchill so the 25PDRs do more than scare the enemy off, Grenadiers can get sprint and camouflage from Commanders.

If penals have PTRSs wont SU t1 Penal/sniper play be practically invulnerable vs OKW? I mean, its not like OKW had any good way of countering sniper play to begin with (other than map dependant jagger inf)

USF LMG has equal stats to the LMG-42.
- Are you arguing that double Brens are unfair?
- Or are you arguing that limiting Brens to 1, with no compensating buff (and Tommies being what they are) would be fair?

If you are trying to make a point, I am not sure what it is exactly.

I think his point was that despite the Bren dealing less DPS, it is comparatively as or more effective than the lmg42, because it has to deal with axis squads with less effective health than allied squads.

self applicable healing medkit.. BEST CHANGE EVER!!! . This one change gives so much staying power to whermacht units.

I am arguing that the inequality in lmg stats is fair as there are other relevant stats which give them balance. So citing the worse Bren stats as reason to allow two of them is bogus logic.

m1919 is clearly not balanced, but it's doctrinal at least and usf need stronger infantry as (aside from Pershing) they have paper tanks. To use that as reason to allow double Brens is also bunk. If anything you could improve the Bren stats a little but if you do this, at least consider other indirect stats which factor into balance such as timing and squad sizing and the original faction concept.

Ok. So what should tommies be good at? And why should anybody invest in UKF infantry upgrades?

If penals have PTRSs wont SU t1 Penal/sniper play be practically invulnerable vs OKW? I mean, its not like OKW had any good way of countering sniper play to begin with (other than map dependant jagger inf)

We don't know yet, and we certainly hope that this is not going to be the case. That's what people should try out and see. Penals don't have snares, and upgrading to PTRS makes them vulnerable to infantry.

On the other hand, people could already go Soviet Sniper into Guards.

Though it might spell death for the Kubel-spam.

I think his point was that despite the Bren dealing less DPS, it is comparatively as or more effective than the lmg42, because it has to deal with axis squads with less effective health than allied squads.

Tommies do cost more. With the upgrades considered, they do cost a lot more than the squads they have to fight.

As far as effective HP is considered, this is also not a valid point. Tommies receive a lot less Accuracy bonuses than other squads in the game.

Moreover, Tommy scaling per-model is equal to Grenadier scaling per-model. Thus, even though Tommies are way more resilient than Grenadiers, they deal way less damage.

Proof:

Grenadier
Total received accuracy: 0.91 * 0.77 = 0.7007
Total accuracy: 1.4

Bonuses sum = 1.4 / 0.7007 = 1.99800199801

Tommies
Total received accuracy: 0.8 * 0.76 = 0.608
Total accuracy: 1.2

Bonuses sum = 1.2 / 0.608 = 1.97368421053

Do note that:
- At some point we also need to consider the utility of Tommies to the cost disparity
- Received accuracy is a garbage stat for long-range infantry. Having veterancy bonuses slanted more towards hard-hitting accuracy is what makes a long-range unit scale well. This is why Grenadiers, who are so cheap, can punch very well above their weight
- The veterancy bonuses are applied ON TOP of the equipped items. Thus, further widening the gap between the LMG42 and the Bren gun.

Limiting Tommy Brens to 1 single one would make them:
- Unable to trade with the far superior utility-wise Grenadiers
- Make them completely useless vs upgraded Volks
- Make even fewer people consider to invest in infantry upgrades

I dont see at all the ptrs upgrade to penals. If it means a huge downgrade against infantry -and a poor upgrade against vehicles- everybody would w8 until 2cps to get guards.
What about putting in t1 the option -may cost fuel- to give cons ptrs -like in tank hunter commander-? Penals would still be the main AI unit and cons would have finally a clear role -supporting at squad-. Moreover we would finally see other commanders which dont have guards on them.

It would be necessary to give a new ability/unit to tank hunters doc though. Maybe kv1/kv2? We rarely see them. Just saying.

Make the Penal PTRS upgrade requiring an additional building (T2/T3), and you can even increase a little its performance.
Otherwise people will simply spam Penals, get half of them PTRS and wait till IS-2/ISU or M4c sherman spam.

Right now tommies can't effectively use 2 bren guns because at vet 3 they get scoped rifles that count as a weapon slot. IF they have 2 bren guns they risk droping one starting at 4 men left in the squad. In my opinion, something should be done about those scoped rifles at vet 3. I saw a cast where the brit player tried to use double bren on tommies and the okw player ended up in having more brens at the end.

This may be a crazy idea, but speaking of stopgap AT Rifles: What about Panzerbusche for Ostheer Pioneers in order to make T1 light vehicle play less of a headache for them? The M3 Scout Car, WC-51, and Bren Carrier can be a real headache and make Ostheer feel the need to rush T2 or lose. Some Panzerbusche Pioneers could give them some breathing room.

Right now tommies can't effectively use 2 bren guns because at vet 3 they get scoped rifles that count as a weapon slot. IF they have 2 bren guns they risk droping one starting at 4 men left in the squad. In my opinion, something should be done about those scoped rifles at vet 3. I saw a cast where the brit player tried to use double bren on tommies and the okw player ended up in having more brens at the end.

We want to fix this, however we can't. Fixing Scoped Enfields without addressing double Brens in some way will make Double-Bren Tommies legitimately OP in the modes where this is affordable to pull off.

Nice update