Winter Balance Preview Changelog

Yes nerf everything soviet.

What an ingenious idea to remove flamethrowers from penals, now they are just riflemen without any weapons. Also what a brilliant idea to increase the price of guards.

Now what am I supposed to do? My penals can't do anti-infantry work and my guards are extremely expensive and yet no match for obersoldaten.

Thanks lelic.

Come on dude, playin as sov was way too chillin' these days. And penals with flamethrower were as broken as flamer riflemen from Rifle Company.

Soviet nerfs, axis buffs. Like good old times. Nice work with medics/healing though.

251 Half-track can now carry mortar teams

WAT? And where's M3's ability to carry snipers? May scoutcar scout again?

SU-76 barrage was already complete shit, no need for a muni cost.

Guards and penals were slightly overnerfed imo.

Other than that good patch.

Wait, no more double 1919 from racks, but still double bren?

Prime example of how whining on this site has a heavy influence on balance decisions, double lmg on rifles is trash on most situations, but double bren on tommies is always powerful.

Come on dude, playin as sov was way too chillin' these days. And penals with flamethrower were as broken as flamer riflemen from Rifle Company.

Yes, but penals dont have at nada, bars, zooks and nades.

Prime example of how whining on this site has a heavy influence on balance decisions, double lmg on rifles is trash on most situations, but double bren on tommies is always powerful.

LMG riflemen is beyond broken in higher-teamgames.

We can't take Tommy Brens away because unlike other infantry, Tommies don't have snares. And we can't only fix Tommies without addressing other things in the faction too. That's the "British Power Curve" gambit (too weak early-game, too powerful late-game).

To actually test how your suggestion would play out, I invite you to try playing with single Bren Tommies, and see how bad they really are.

Ok here we go:

Reinforcing halftracks
M3 HT(UKF): gets nothing on vet 2 and vet 3 Rip Copy paste other HT veterancy
Is the 251 HT the only one which can move support weapons mortars?
Why not the other 3? The 250 HT? In case the 251 HT is the only one able to, it can transport stolen mortars ?

Sniper cloak
I do think that the 10s recloak time after shooting OUTSIDE cover it's fine (deals with finicky issues).
I do think it's excessive the 3s after combat cloak time. I believe the micro games moving around sniper through cover is a fine mechanic (only for snipers) giving the fragility of them and considering the latest nerfs to it (adding detection and target tables on other units).

IF there are issues, i only think that this is the case for the OH sniper vs USF match up and UKF vs OKW. Till they change a bit the SU sniper (problematic for been 2 models but having crap cloaking) i don't think it's an issue.
For the OH vs USF: the addition of mortar + M20 change + 222 change makes more than enough to deal with OH sniper.
UKF/SU vs OKW: they have slower RoF. OKW has 5man based main infantry. Aimed shot nerf hurts against UKF.

IF snipers would be overperforming, then why not improve and add counters?
Brainstorming:
Show Spoiler
Note: all other changes to other cloak units are fine.

Puma: is it really needed the nerf? I guess consistency but i don't think the current perf excels at AI and it's fine.

Penals: fine with the nerfs.
Instead of removing the flamethrower, why not replace the SVT with PPSH when upgraded so actually sacrifice mid/long range DPS? Or add PPSH/DP upgrade? Or reduce satchel cost ?

Guards: i think there are TOO MANY nerfs at the same time.
Keep the nerfs to vet, nade and AI PTRS but keep the current cost ?
Is there any issue adding been able to rebuy PTRS ? (What comes to my mind is that them been piñatas would give PTRS to everyone XD)

M17 Quad
Doesn't it arrive way later than others suppressing HT (both USF and OKW). Muni cost could go down or not (90-100) after those nerfs?
PD: you know you have crap AA when they have to buff it by x100. Although this isn't too much and should be 3% per shot instead of 30% ? Other AA sources to same levels ?

OH Medkit
Self healing ?

G43 on PG/ST
I still think it's not enough to be useful on them (specialy on PG in comparison to their STG). JLI G43 crit chance?

Stuart
Now that stun shots no longer disables movement, what about been able to use it with engine shot (does it still bugs?)

Aimed shot
Can you still target support weapons ?

"Due to interference with UKF teching, it will be no longer possible to call Gliders or Air Resupply operation in the base sector"
Explain?

Ok here we go:

Reinforcing halftracks
M3 HT(UKF): gets nothing on vet 2 and vet 3 Rip Copy paste other HT veterancy
Is the 251 HT the only one which can move support weapons mortars?
Why not the other 3? The 250 HT? In case the 251 HT is the only one able to, it can transport stolen mortars ?

Sniper cloak
I do think that the 10s recloak time after shooting OUTSIDE cover it's fine (deals with finicky issues).
I do think it's excessive the 3s after combat cloak time. I believe the micro games moving around sniper through cover is a fine mechanic (only for snipers) giving the fragility of them and considering the latest nerfs to it (adding detection and target tables on other units).

IF there are issues, i only think that this is the case for the OH sniper vs USF match up and UKF vs OKW. Till they change a bit the SU sniper (problematic for been 2 models but having crap cloaking) i don't think it's an issue.
For the OH vs USF: the addition of mortar + M20 change + 222 change makes more than enough to deal with OH sniper.
UKF/SU vs OKW: they have slower RoF. OKW has 5man based main infantry. Aimed shot nerf hurts against UKF.

IF snipers would be overperforming, then why not improve and add counters?
Brainstorming:
Show Spoiler

Note: all other changes to other cloak units are fine.

Puma: is it really needed the nerf? I guess consistency but i don't think the current perf excels at AI and it's fine.

Penals: fine with the nerfs.
Instead of removing the flamethrower, why not replace the SVT with PPSH when upgraded so actually sacrifice mid/long range DPS? Or add PPSH/DP upgrade? Or reduce satchel cost ?

Guards: i think there are TOO MANY nerfs at the same time.
Keep the nerfs to vet, nade and AI PTRS but keep the current cost ?
Is there any issue adding been able to rebuy PTRS ? (What comes to my mind is that them been piñatas would give PTRS to everyone XD)

M17 Quad
Doesn't it arrive way later than others suppressing HT (both USF and OKW). Muni cost could go down or not (90-100) after those nerfs?
PD: you know you have crap AA when they have to buff it by x100. Although this isn't too much and should be 3% per shot instead of 30% ? Other AA sources to same levels ?

OH Medkit
Self healing ?

G43 on PG/ST
I still think it's not enough to be useful on them (specialy on PG in comparison to their STG). JLI G43 crit chance?

Stuart
Now that stun shots no longer disables movement, what about been able to use it with engine shot (does it still bugs?)

Aimed shot
Can you still target support weapons ?

"Due to interference with UKF teching, it will be no longer possible to call Gliders or Air Resupply operation in the base sector"
Explain?

M17 Quad and guards no need those nerfs, penals maybe. Everything else u said, im ok

Is the 251 HT the only one which can move support weapons mortars?
Why not the other 3? The 250 HT? In case the 251 HT is the only one able to, it can transport stolen mortars ?

It might be because it's the only enclosed one. Couldn't say why they wouldn't just prevent them from firing while inside though, HMGs can be transported fine in HTs without firing right?

Ok here we go:
M17 Quad
Doesn't it arrive way later than others suppressing HT (both USF and OKW). Muni cost could go down or not (90-100) after those nerfs?
PD: you know you have crap AA when they have to buff it by x100. Although this isn't too much and should be 3% per shot instead of 30% ? Other AA sources to same levels ?

Given it's rate of fire, it should shoot down planes in about half a burst every time one comes in range?

Poor Ostwind.

I'm eager to see how squad spacing changes plays out.

Given it's rate of fire, it should shoot down planes in about half a burst every time one comes in range?

Poor Ostwind.

Yeah, I thought it sounded a bit much too, maybe they thought it'd be justified since the Soviets have no other source for AA save for doctrinal tank DShKs while everyone else at least has two stock sources of it? And I think the gunner's still pretty friggin' bad at tracking planes?

OKW late game shall rule the battlefields once more! Let us rejoice for winrates beyond 80%!

Jesus Christ, there are some major WTF-moments in these patch notes. Hopefully they will be ironed out, or I predict some major bullshittery going on for the next six months (or whenever else Relic decides to awaken from their beauty sleep).

It's kind of funny that the Staurt was nerfed, but the M15 (which now is a more viable and thus probably more often chosen option) wasn't fixed, so it will still suppress infantry squads while moving...

P.S.: Oh, and of course double BARs are still a thing. Sure, not M1919s, the upgrade that is much less often seen. Doesn't matter that the effect of both is the same (they transform Riflemen into an all-range superior unit), let's keep one of those... NotLikeThis

P.P.S.: The G43 change is fucking retarded. So it PzGrens and Stormtroopers get a better one, but the troops that actually needed to be better don? Who's fucking braindeath managed to create that bollocks? Why the fuck would I ever, ever invest 60 ammo on PzGrennies for a weapon that is significantly worse than what they start out with, especially for the job they do? Why shouldn't Grens, who would actually benefit from more sight range, get that buff? Among all the "What the fucking door knob."-moments I had when reading that post, this was definitely one of the two biggest.

So nerf soviet early mid game units and forget about soviet late game .

The big overarching vision behind light vehicle changes are:
- You can still go ahead and play vehicle-vs-vehicle stuff, but now, hopefully, it will be more fair
- However, with the changes, you can also hopefully have a chance of playing with a vehicle-free build, and not having to outskill your opponent.

The latter point is extremely crucial, since we have 2 factions (UKF and OST) that can field no light vehicle of their own. Having no options meant that all build orders converged to exactly the same thing. And that kills strategic diversity there on the cradle

- Stuff that wasn't buffed, or even touched (e.g., M3 HT) might become stronger due to the nerfs/later-arrival of their counters

Ok here we go:

Reinforcing halftracks
M3 HT(UKF): gets nothing on vet 2 and vet 3 Rip Copy paste other HT veterancy
Is the 251 HT the only one which can move support weapons mortars?
Why not the other 3? The 250 HT? In case the 251 HT is the only one able to, it can transport stolen mortars ?

The 251 can carry all mortars in its hold (even stolen ones. No, ISG's do not count as mortars).

We could also allow other halftracks to carry just about anything around (HMG/Mortars/etc). However one issue with that is that the mortar/MG-carrying models will not show up on the open-topped HT. Thus, it might be possible for a player to trick the enemy as to the status of their cargo.

Note that the 251 HT is also the most fragile of the lot (doctrinal HT's excepted).

Sniper cloak
I do think that the 10s recloak time after shooting OUTSIDE cover it's fine (deals with finicky issues).
I do think it's excessive the 3s after combat cloak time. I believe the micro games moving around sniper through cover is a fine mechanic (only for snipers) giving the fragility of them and considering the latest nerfs to it (adding detection and target tables on other units).

IF there are issues, i only think that this is the case for the OH sniper vs USF match up and UKF vs OKW. Till they change a bit the SU sniper (problematic for been 2 models but having crap cloaking) i don't think it's an issue.
For the OH vs USF: the addition of mortar + M20 change + 222 change makes more than enough to deal with OH sniper.
UKF/SU vs OKW: they have slower RoF. OKW has 5man based main infantry. Aimed shot nerf hurts against UKF.

IF snipers would be overperforming, then why not improve and add counters?
Brainstorming:
Show Spoiler

Note: all other changes to other cloak units are fine.

The sniper changes we did were limited in scope, since they are meant to act as a guard vs light-vehicles losing some of their AI power.

The scope of the stealth changes was broadened to cover other stealth units, given Tightrope's recent reboot of the JP4-wondercannon bug that you know very well.

Our goal for this patch is to find the sweet spot where light vehicle performance should go. Ideally, we want to do this without overnerfing the sniper, or giving him complete rein over the battlefield.

At a later patch, we could rework the sniper/sniper-counter system, and those suggestions could prove handy. However, it's important to keep the scope of the patch as narrow as possible, so the stuff that we do change gets properly tested.

Raketenwerfer might need some responsiveness buffs.

I think it's a healthier compromise to have an AT gun that can hold its ground vs tanks, rather than have one that's crap vs tanks and unkillable by infantry.

Puma: is it really needed the nerf? I guess consistency but i don't think the current perf excels at AI and it's fine.

The thought process behind the Puma nerf has to do with the AEC, and OST. The AEC had to take a bit of an AI nerf to accommodate OST not having to go 222 every single game.

Then, we had to make a choice about what stuff the AEC should do better than the Puma (given that the Puma is massively better at AT), so that the AEC doesn't become a worse Puma. At the same time, the Puma should remain considerably better at AT than the AEC, given that it is a considerably bigger investment for the OKW player to build a puma, than for the UKF player to get an AEC.

Thus, the only reasonable option we found was to reduce Puma AI so that AEC at least has an area it is better at than the Puma.

Yes, the Aimed shot nerf will hurt OKW anti-sniper capabilities. However, our gamble is that the stealth nerf on the snipers will more than compensate for this.

Penals: fine with the nerfs.
Instead of removing the flamethrower, why not replace the SVT with PPSH when upgraded so actually sacrifice mid/long range DPS? Or add PPSH/DP upgrade? Or reduce satchel cost ?

We tried that. Then we decided that with Penals being able to switch from long-ranged-AI role to close ranged specialists:
- Nobody would ever, ever build Shocks (who actually really badly need a buff)
- We had no idea how such a lethal close-ranged squad would play in some of the city maps. Thus we didn't want to introduce anything potentially gamebraking.

Guards: i think there are TOO MANY nerfs at the same time.
Keep the nerfs to vet, nade and AI PTRS but keep the current cost ?
Is there any issue adding been able to rebuy PTRS ? (What comes to my mind is that them been piñatas would give PTRS to everyone XD)

Bingo. Guards would, then, become the unofficial weapon rack of the Soviets, kitting out everyone. Thus Guards would become an auto-pick, further shoving Shocks further down into oblivion.

IMO, a better solution would be to prevent PTRS rifles from dropping altogether.

The cost is an one-time thing. Guards have decent reinforcement cost. We have to see how things play out with the Vet5 faction, though.

M17 Quad
Doesn't it arrive way later than others suppressing HT (both USF and OKW). Muni cost could go down or not (90-100) after those nerfs?
PD: you know you have crap AA when they have to buff it by x100. Although this isn't too much and should be 3% per shot instead of 30% ? Other AA sources to same levels ?

If I recall correctly, the USF M15 has a 17% chance per hit, and it has 3 guns.

IMO, the M17 quad should be the most efficient unit at killing planes. That's because it's the most expensive AA platform to get, and also the most vulnerable to airplanes (which it has to shoot down). Thus, the Quad should, really, really shut planes down very reliably on the first pass.

OH Medkit
Self healing ?

It could be an option.

G43 on PG/ST
I still think it's not enough to be useful on them (specialy on PG in comparison to their STG). JLI G43 crit chance?

On paper, the damage output per G43 is quite decent. The problem is that PGrens only get 2 of them, and that hardly qualifies as a role change.

In our early tests, we gave PGrens the ability to buy a single JLI G43 sniper rifle. The thing was beyond broken. All squads would fold to sniper-G43 at all ranges, all veterancy levels, and all upgrades.

I think that the only way to make this upgrade salvageable is one of the following:
- Award more G43 rifles
- Allow PGrens to choose which part of the DPS they want to shed (e.g., lose your G43's as your models die when closing in)

Nevertheless, the stealth detection idea you mentioned is pretty good.

However, since we want people to really focus on the stock options, and see how the light vehicle meta will evolve, it would be too distracting to have all the doctrinal options popping up at the same time.

Stuart
Now that stun shots no longer disables movement, what about been able to use it with engine shot (does it still bugs?)

We are not aware of a bug to the Engine Shot. Perhaps it's because the range is too short? Now that the two abilities are non-overlapping people will actually get to use the Engine Shot.

Aimed shot
Can you still target support weapons ?

Vehicles only.

"Due to interference with UKF teching, it will be no longer possible to call Gliders or Air Resupply operation in the base sector"
Explain?

Realpolitik.

Landing gliders and/or supply drops too close to the UKF T3 before you researched the upgrade would prevent the Brit player from teching. That's because the UKF building would have nowhere to spawn.

Since we have no way of figuring out what causes the bug to trigger in the first place, and since there are more important bugs to go after, we figured that eliminating the most common causes of the bug would at least make it go away.

So who make patch and test , why you make double nerf for penals and guards ? And waht the reason nerf all mortars, if one of them are to slow and accuracy compared to antoher mortars ?

Because they were overperforming lol?

Because they were overperforming lol?

Lol soviet stock mortar are oberperfoming ?

All these players's tears because now they actually need to play to win lol.

Lol soviet stock mortar are oberperfoming ?

No, but guards and penals are in live version, that is why you didn't mention them in your current reply lol.

No, but guards and penals are in live version, that is why you didn't mention them in your current reply lol.

If you ckeck i write a lot post and i write about penals and guards. But you can still think taht soviet mortar are overperfoming.