Winter Balance Preview Changelog

Wow all these BabyRaging allies mains in this thread it's so delicious

It's indeed fun to see. Some nerfs for the sov infantry is too much, but the rest is nice. indirect fire and light verhicles have owned the axis long enough.

No fix for OKW folks faust range ?

Soviet

I feel the nerf on Soviet really hard. It is not like I haven't rage against them on 1vs1, and also one of the reason I stopped playing the game on 1vs1. But Honestly: hard nerf Penal + medium nerf Guards + hard nerf T70 + hard nerf M17 is a bit over the top imo.

Penal: Remove Flamers + increasing popcap are two good points. shouldn't go further.
Guard: I would have simply reduce the squad size to 4 men. The main issue vs guard is their resilience to damage. 4 men squad make them vulnerable vs sniper/hmg/mortar and grens.
M17: Remove suppression on the move is a good change, but why do you nerf it more, I really don't buy your explanation.
T70: Agreeing on all the changes. (same for the Stuart btw)

My vision is if the Sov player wants to go T1, he decides to heavily invest on AI units and thus become vulnerable to light vehicles. Guards doctrines were completely negating this aspect of the gameplay, so nerfing the guards resiliency so they can't hard counter light is the get to go to keep them balance.

I don't really understand where you want to go with this patchnote on Soviet, You'll just make people not going T1 anymore with Penal nerf/Sniper nerf.

Oshteer

I don't really understand the buff on Pioneer, Pioneer vs Engy/RE matchup is a question of cover at the moment. Don't you fear that they simply become too good vs their respective counterparts?

Assgren may become interesting to play.

G43 buff on PG/ST: I like it.

222, I like it but will give some more free room to the M20

Stug-E, every nerf on it is a good nerf. Can't count how many games I have won by spamming them like no brain.

USF

M1919: I don't understand your position: 1st RM resilience is nerfed on your patch (read it on this forum) so How can you say that The ability to equip two M1919 LMG’s on a squad was resulting in over performing long range DPS for a squad as durable as Riflemen. Sounds to me a double nerf.
Deny its access to RE so you can't have cheap troops carrying M1919.

Mortar: every nerf on this thing is a good nerf.

Critical Repair: double nerf, again.

M20: if you make the zook cost 50amo, make the skirt free. How can you imagine people investing 100 manpower on something that die in 2 shots so early in game.
Sounds to me that nobody will pay the zook and thus become a useless ability. Thinking more about it, well, who will even think to upgrade the zook, who will even think "I'll upgrade the zook so if I face a 222, I'll jump out of my car so...." no no no, noboby is gonna buy the zook. If your M20 get destroy you lose it and lose 50amo for nothing.

Stuart: Agreeing on all changes (like the T70)

M15: Due to the changes made to the Stuart , the M15 needed to be brought in line to prevent it from becoming the new dominant meta choice. To me it sounds like bullshit.
we are talking about a high fuel unit that delay for quite a long time hard AT capacity (it is not like Sov T3 giving you access to Su76 or OKW having ATgun from the start), so it better be good at AI. thing you simply removed. So here again, what will be the purpose for this unit, you cannot say it is a wipe machine today since it is not. It is also completely unable to chase retreating squad. Every squad I have wipe with the M15 are squads players were not retreating in time. In time like 10-15 seconds firing at them non-stop before ending killing the last model.
Last point, since it is not a wipe machine and not really super mobile, it is not like you vet it up really fast, so less damage output but same vet requirement = You'll never see this unit reaching vet2 anymore.

M5: was too early, good change.

OKW

triple buff on Sturmpioneer. Great news...

251, good buffs, but the munition cost reduction is definitively too much, this + free medic kits on Sturmpio sound to me like "hey guys, just spam Volks STG, you don't need to choose where to spend your munition".

Brits

Piat: spam/blob is the new shreck spam/blob.

AEC: I don't follow you on your statements, the AEC is quite balance today in my opinion.

No fix for OKW folks faust range ?

Still more expensive than Ostheer faust, range is justified.

I'm mainly playing osther during this patch and was very happy to see the usf mortar finally nerfed.
So i decided to play some 2 vs 2 as USF against 2 osther player who started each one by building 2 mg42 followed by a wehrmacht mortar.

Well, because of the range nerf, ennemy mg42 could almost fire on my mortar when i was using it to counter the mg42 and the damage were .. bad. (at least against garizoned mg42).

I guess you tried to make a mobile mortar to allow usf to put smoke barrage there, flank then moove again the mortar and repeat .. but against double MG42 covering each other, you can't only use flank and smoke.

The problem is that the usf mortar damage was low, easily countered by grenadier rifle grenade because of the low range and VERY HEAVILY countered by osther mortar, especially at vet1 when it got its ability.

sadly, i didn't save the replay.
But you might maybe consider buffing a bit usf mortar range in order to make it viable.

i felt like it would be easier to upgrade smoke grenade & rush pak howitzer, just like in the old days.

no need to thanks you again for the time spent on this balance mod.

Thanks for the feedback on the mortar.

It was indeed our intention to make the USF mortar more vulnerable to counterbarraging by the OST mortar, and rifle grenades from the grenadiers:
- Correct me if I am wrong, but OST mortar is usually a suboptimal choice for an OST vs USF matchup, due to the highly mobile nature of USF.
- Grenadiers, which will have to get outscaled by Riflemen (due to disparities elsewhere in the mortar), will have an additional utility role, so that they won't feel that much of a burden to carry.

The primary reason why the USF mortar stands to be less cost efficient than other mortars is because of the free officer. We will have to monitor closely exactly how strong the mortar feels, especially in relation to USF's teching perks, before we can make adjustments (upwards or downwards)


The shorter range was so that the USF mortar can be countered by either the OST mortar (so that OST mortars begin to make sense to get build vs USF), and the rifle grenade (so that Grenadiers will

222, I like it but will give some more free room to the M20

M20: if you make the zook cost 50amo, make the skirt free. How can you imagine people investing 100 manpower on something that die in 2 shots so early in game.
Sounds to me that nobody will pay the zook and thus become a useless ability. Thinking more about it, well, who will even think to upgrade the zook, who will even think "I'll upgrade the zook so if I face a 222, I'll jump out of my car so...." no no no, noboby is gonna buy the zook. If your M20 get destroy you lose it and lose 50amo for nothing.

You made some interesting statements about the M20 and the 222. Now try to read them together, one after the other and see where you contradict yourself.

Bonus points: Now that the forced zook is gone, you can upgrade Elite Vehicle Thompsons, if that's what rocks your boat.

M15: Due to the changes made to the Stuart , the M15 needed to be brought in line to prevent it from becoming the new dominant meta choice. To me it sounds like bullshit.
we are talking about a high fuel unit that delay for quite a long time hard AT capacity (it is not like Sov T3 giving you access to Su76 or OKW having ATgun from the start), so it better be good at AI. thing you simply removed. So here again, what will be the purpose for this unit, you cannot say it is a wipe machine today since it is not. It is also completely unable to chase retreating squad. Every squad I have wipe with the M15 are squads players were not retreating in time. In time like 10-15 seconds firing at them non-stop before ending killing the last model.
Last point, since it is not a wipe machine and not really super mobile, it is not like you vet it up really fast, so less damage output but same vet requirement = You'll never see this unit reaching vet2 anymore.

The M15 received a major anti-vehicle efficiency buff, due to the fact that the vehicles it should counter have become significantly more expensive.

Since the M15 is the most reliable form of AT in the tier, it had to lay down on the anti-infantry efficiency. If I am not mistaken, the M15 is the only suppression platform that can suppress while moving.

251, good buffs, but the munition cost reduction is definitively too much, this + free medic kits on Sturmpio sound to me like "hey guys, just spam Volks STG, you don't need to choose where to spend your munition".

The smoke ability used to cost exactly 0 munitions. Now it costs 25 munitions at Vet0 and 15 munitions at vet1.

Piat: spam/blob is the new shreck spam/blob.

Try to blob 30-range PIATs vs 35-sight range tanks, and tell us how that worked out for you. Brits don't have snares.

If you manage to pull the PIAT blob off, make sure you post a replay so that we can review it and make adjustments.

Penal: Remove Flamers + increasing popcap are two good points. shouldn't go further.

Their accuracy bonuses were too high. Mind you they were triple buffed last patch and are now dominating all axis infantry in live game, vet or non-vet. Well-deserved adjustments.

Guard: I would have simply reduce the squad size to 4 men. The main issue vs guard is their resilience to damage. 4 men squad make them vulnerable vs sniper/hmg/mortar and grens.

That wouldn't feel natural, in other words, not practical at all.

M17: Remove suppression on the move is a good change, but why do you nerf it more, I really don't buy your explanation.

Because it is rushed way too often and cripples axis mobility, suppresses the R43 on the first shot. Pretty broken. The damage is pretty high as well. Remember, this patch aims at adjusting the dominance of light vehicles, and the Quad is the second or third offending unit on the list.

I don't really understand the buff on Pioneer, Pioneer vs Engy/RE matchup is a question of cover at the moment. Don't you fear that they simply become too good vs their respective counterparts?

Pioneers cost more, don't have access to demos, 30muni TM35, and lose at all ranges expect CQC. It is such a trivial change that you won't be able to notice the buff. Try the mod.

Stug-E, every nerf on it is a good nerf. Can't count how many games I have won by spamming them like no brain.

@7CP, easily countered by the Su76 which arrives 5 minutes earlier at least. AEC, Stuart and ATGs are other viable options. Destroying rank 200000 noobs with a unit does not prove it it is OP. The cost was increased to address the spam meta. Nerfing the AI damage to (almost) the same level of regular StuGs is not justified at all. It doesn't do jackshit against in the preview mod.

M1919eny its access to RE so you can't have cheap troops carrying M1919.

M1919 on RE is not a problem to begin with. Rifelmen's recieved accuracy, and the fact that they can pick up two are what made this upgrade broken. These issues are addressed now.

triple buff on Sturmpioneer. Great news...

Cost adjustment for medical crates and faster construction rate @ vet 1. They are kinda better at their role as engineers now.

251, good buffs, but the munition cost reduction is definitively too much, this + free medic kits on Sturmpio sound to me like "hey guys, just spam Volks STG, you don't need to choose where to spend your munition".

STG Volks is a different issue, and yes they do need some adjustments.

Piat: spam/blob is the new shreck spam/blob.

Agreed

AEC: I don't follow you on your statements, the AEC is quite balance today in my opinion.

It is a light TD. It was designed to be a light TD. Not a generalist. The LMGs on the pumas were nerfed, even though they don't hit anything. The reason is simple, they are TDs.

Not to mention that the Brits infantry does not need such a potent AI support that early in game. Well deserved adjustments. It also received multiple buffs so it excels at its role now.

You made some interesting statements about the M20 and the 222. Now try to read them together, one after the other and see where you contradict yourself.

Bonus points: Now that the forced zook is gone, you can upgrade Elite Vehicle Thompsons, if that's what rocks your boat.

Are you serious? so because the 222 hit the field like 1 minute later, M20 should lose some dps (ok) and the zook? Put yourself as USF player, do you really think you'll buy that zook to counter the 222??? No, you'll spend 15 fuel on racks and double zook your RE squad. because anyone going T1 must buy buy zooks.
So why not removing that zook and make the skirt free for the sake of balance.

The M15 received a major anti-vehicle efficiency buff, due to the fact that the vehicles it should counter have become significantly more expensive.

Since the M15 is the most reliable form of AT in the tier, it had to lay down on the anti-infantry efficiency. If I am not mistaken, the M15 is the only suppression platform that can suppress while moving.

You are mistaking, the M15 doesn't suppress on the move.
You are also mistaking on the M15 capacity to counter light vehicle. So far it counters the 222 wich is cheaper. It doesn't counter the Luch and it doesn't counter the Puma (unless you decide to charge your Puma into the M15 arc or fire).
The M15 is a AI platform that cost 50 fuel, isn't especially mobile, comes with a setback: has a blind spot and does mean "I don't have ATGUN and I don't have ATmines so feel free to rush me" so need to be able to keep its natural counters at bay for a little time. Already today, a M15 without zook support is a dead M15, so I don't really see where you find it AT capabilities.

The smoke ability used to cost exactly 0 munitions. Now it costs 25 munitions at Vet0 and 15 munitions at vet1.

You're right, but OKW become the first faction with free healing...

Try to blob 30-range PIATs vs 35-sight range tanks, and tell us how that worked out for you. Brits don't have snares.

Have you ever try to face a piat blob with a Pz4/Panther/Ostwind? You constantly need to move to avoid skill shots. So the skill shot is gone, welcome homing missiles. 30 range is peanuts, it will never be a argument to not blob. There is a reason why Relic removed shreck from volks and not tried to reduce even more the shreck range. Pz4 35 vision vs piatblob 30 range, you'll always get hit somewhere in your micro vs a a-move blob. Only option = full retreat your tank = blob wins.

If you manage to pull the PIAT blob off, make sure you post a replay so that we can review it and make adjustments.

I'll give a credit to your argumentation, I don't own Brit so it will not happen any time soon.

Pioneers cost more, don't have access to demos, 30muni TM35, and lose at all ranges expect CQC. It is such a trivial change that you won't be able to notice the buff. Try the mod.

As far as I remember Pioneer cost is the same as RE. Engy cost less but are definitively less powerful.

@7CP, easily countered by the Su76 which arrives 5 minutes earlier at least. AEC, Stuart and ATGs are other viable options. Destroying rank 200000 noobs with a unit does not prove it it is OP. The cost was increased to address the spam meta. Nerfing the AI damage to (almost) the same level of regular StuGs is not justified at all. It doesn't do jackshit against in the preview mod.

Dual pak is the key. Stug-E simply wipe all the infantry while the pak murder the medium tanks. Stug-E soak too much damage. I have maybe be a bit harsh on it, reducing its hp and removing the target weak point is probably enough.

M1919 on RE is not a problem to begin with. Rifelmen's recieved accuracy, and the fact that they can pick up two are what made this upgrade broken. These issues are addressed now.

Rifles received accuracy has been nerfed in the patch, so it is a false statement to say "we nerf the M1919 on rifles because of their received accuracy"

Edit: I know my playercard shows that I'm mainly a USF player but really I almost never use the M1919 same if I pick one of the commander. To me it is simply a double nerf for nothing.

Cost adjustment for medical crates and faster construction rate @ vet 1. They are kinda better at their role as engineers now.

A cost adjustment would be to increase or reduce the price, not remove it.

Have you ever try to face a piat blob with a Pz4/Panther/Ostwind? You constantly need to move to avoid skill shots. So the skill shot is gone, welcome homing missiles. 30 range is peanuts, it will never be a argument to not blob. There is a reason why Relic removed shreck from volks and not tried to reduce even more the shreck range. Pz4 35 vision vs piatblob 30 range, you'll always get hit somewhere in your micro vs a a-move blob. Only option = full retreat your tank = blob wins.

In the live version, the PIAT has 45 range. In the mod, the PIAT has 30 range.
In the live version, the PIAT deals 120 damage on penetration. In the mod, the PIAT deals 100 damage on penetration.
In the live version, the PIAT deals 80 damage on deflection. In the mod, the PIAT deals 25 damage on deflection.
In the live version, PIATs cost 40 munitions. In the mod, the PIAT costs 50 munitions.
In both versions, the PIAT will deflect 30% of the time on medium tanks, and 60% of the time on Brummbar.

You can actually kite PIAT blobs on the mod. In the live version this is not possible. How can these changes ever make it more difficult for somebody to punish a PIAT blob?

Just launch the mod, and get real.

I'll give a credit to your argumentation, I don't own Brit so it will not happen any time soon.

Then why the hell are you commenting about Brits changes on the balance forum?

Then why the hell are you commenting about Brits changes on the balance forum?

I do not comment on the multiple changes you made to Brit, I comment on the idea modifying the Piat will not make it blobby. It is where you are wrong, in the world of Coh2, less effective means you need to spam and blob it more.

And what about my comments on USF stuff?

I'll give a credit to your argumentation, I don't own Brit so it will not happen any time soon.

you can probably still test them in cheat mode, and have a more informed view on the matter...

And what about my comments on USF stuff?

In the live version, you only go USF T1 if you want to rush the enemy. The downside of T1 is that due to the cost efficiency of certain OKW/OST vehicles this can leave a huge gaping hole in the AT department (in the live version).

Our goal with USF T1 changes is:
1. Slow down the shock factor on the enemy, so that they have a chance to react to the various threats you want to throw at them.
2. Make T1 sustainable for the late game. Give a reason for USF players to consider back-teching.

Currently, if you want to lay mines as USF you have to unlock the lieutenant 200MP + 50 FU, and then buy a 340MP + 20FU minelayer.

If, for some reason, your M20 gets destroyed, you need to pay an additional 340MP + 20FU for a replacement minelayer.

All you want in the late-game is a damn minelayer, and nobody has pockets deep enough to afford 880MP in the late game, just so that they can afford to lay mines. Armour skirts also don't make a difference in the late-game. Your M20 is still going to go down in two shots.

As a direct consequence of USF T1 changes you need to plan out strategically how to transition from no-AT to some-AT:
- Are you going to buy Bazookas on your M20 crews, just so that you dont have to pay for the fuel unlock?
- Are you going to go commando with the M20 and try to bait over mines?
- Are you going to build an M15 and use Riflemen AT nades to cover the blind spots?
- Are you going to unlock bazookas and equip some of your Riflemen/Rear Echelons?
- Are you going to tech captain and rely on the Captain's bazooka
- Are you going to tech captain and buy some AT gun?

That is a ton of options to choose from. Moreover, as a side-effect of OKW/OST changes, you also have more time to plan out your strategy and see how you want to counter their counters. At the same time, the enemy cannot predict which option you are going to go for.

If we would give any of the features back to the M20, we would have to hike its price up. And then, nobody would ever want to back-tech to T1. Thus, we took out everything that we consider optional for the late-game.

In the late-game, nobody gives a damn if their minelayer:
- Can have good DPS vs infantry the moment it rolls out
- If it has 240HP or 320HP, since vehicles lack retreat, and the m20 will still go down in 2 shots
- If the vehicle crew (i.e., the weakest infantry in the game) gets access to 1 bazooka or not

All people want for their late-game is a damn minelayer, and teching to USF T1 will reward people with that.

Regarding British, we had some changes in mind to do with Double Brens, but to prevent double Brens it required some other changes to compensate which were out of scope and cut by Relic. We are working on ways to try and include this in a more concise way so we can get this through.

just create a good balance pls

In the live version, you only go USF T1 if you want to rush the enemy. The downside of T1 is that due to the cost efficiency of certain OKW/OST vehicles this can leave a huge gaping hole in the AT department (in the live version).

Our goal with USF T1 changes is:
1. Slow down the shock factor on the enemy, so that they have a chance to react to the various threats you want to throw at them.
2. Make T1 sustainable for the late game. Give a reason for USF players to consider back-teching.

Currently, if you want to lay mines as USF you have to unlock the lieutenant 200MP + 50 FU, and then buy a 340MP + 20FU minelayer.

If, for some reason, your M20 gets destroyed, you need to pay an additional 340MP + 20FU for a replacement minelayer.

All you want in the late-game is a damn minelayer, and nobody has pockets deep enough to afford 880MP in the late game, just so that they can afford to lay mines. Armour skirts also don't make a difference in the late-game. Your M20 is still going to go down in two shots.

As a direct consequence of USF T1 changes you need to plan out strategically how to transition from no-AT to some-AT:
- Are you going to buy Bazookas on your M20 crews, just so that you dont have to pay for the fuel unlock?
- Are you going to go commando with the M20 and try to bait over mines?
- Are you going to build an M15 and use Riflemen AT nades to cover the blind spots?
- Are you going to unlock bazookas and equip some of your Riflemen/Rear Echelons?
- Are you going to tech captain and rely on the Captain's bazooka
- Are you going to tech captain and buy some AT gun?

That is a ton of options to choose from. Moreover, as a side-effect of OKW/OST changes, you also have more time to plan out your strategy and see how you want to counter their counters. At the same time, the enemy cannot predict which option you are going to go for.

If we would give any of the features back to the M20, we would have to hike its price up. And then, nobody would ever want to back-tech to T1. Thus, we took out everything that we consider optional for the late-game.

In the late-game, nobody gives a damn if their minelayer:
- Can have good DPS vs infantry the moment it rolls out
- If it has 240HP or 320HP, since vehicles lack retreat, and the m20 will still go down in 2 shots
- If the vehicle crew (i.e., the weakest infantry in the game) gets access to 1 bazooka or not

All people want for their late-game is a damn minelayer, and teching to USF T1 will reward people with that.

Hum, isn't lowering m20 price going to increase the rush factor? 100mp less is a thing, it is not always the fuel that delay your M20, sometime the MP if you pressing really hard and have to reinforce a lot. It also let you buy an extra RE or maybe an extra mortar or a cache with little additional delay for the m20 since the first counter available (222) is also delayed.
Same goes for the M15 but the price reduction is negligible.
Late game you also want vision range, your m20 gives incredible vision with vet. It also works as counter harrass on your flank. I'm not really buying your conception of the m20 usage on late game, at this stage of the game, I'll say 100mp doesn't make that much any difference difference. But fair enough, it is not really what bother me more.

Now you do not really respond on why the M15 damage has to be nerf by 50%, this is a huge nerf for a unit that already doesn't burst any squad. If your logic is to make it less lethal, I'm not particularly against that but in that case increase the suppression value so units get pined faster and force to retreat. You then give the unit a real utility. I already see players making they squads crawling under its suppression just to faust it because it doesn't deal much damage already.
Already it is not stupid at all to simply go T1/.50/zooks for a maximum fuel saving and a good AI control, with this patch it will simply become the best reliable strat.

Now you do not really respond on why the M15 damage has to be nerf by 50%, this is a huge nerf for a unit that already doesn't burst any squad.

The M15's damage nerf was only against infantry. Not only does it still have incredible suppression, it still shreds the 222 and OKW Flak Half Track just as fast, regardless of the 222 now costing 250mp and 30 fuel, as well as the M15 costing less manpower.

I know you guys weren't able to touch things not in the scope of Light Vehicles, Etc. But I'd still like to see some kind of cooldown added to Infiltration Infantry to mitigate Infiltration cheese somewhat - I.E. adding a partial/full Cooldown on Grenades upon Infiltration so you can't just Shrek/Snare with AT Partisons or insta nuke Support Weapons with Bundle Grenades/ Gammons with no chance to react due to pack up time.

again dont know why relic chose these people to represent balance when mostof them are new,have allied bias and are crybaby just like other memebers...should have taken cruzz,some top players,dane,maybe keep miragefla but don't let him touch okw(apparently he doesn't understands the concept of elite faction)

Doesn't explain why the nerf by 50% dps vs infantry. I do not build a M15 to coutner 222/251/Luch...

also remind me again why the supposed community patch includes just 3 guys and when we will get an another messy patch by these folks relic will say no more community patch,well they should have picked right community members not these allied fanboys which make every army feel the same okw was supposed to be a elite faction remember mr.smith and generals gentlemen aussie who wouldn't nerf his beloved brits

I just hope the damage nerf on the M20 doesn't make it to live, with the nerf to superglue it feels unwarranted, you won't be able to dive in as much due to the fear of being snared actually costing you the vehicle.

all OST infantry is still gonna get wiped to RNG all day everyday due to 4 man squads.