Winter Balance Preview Changelog

PII Luch nerf doesnt seem reasonable. It's a dedicated AI light tank that does a good job that has served OKW as a hard counter to infantry in the current meta.

It's veterancy requirements demand a heavy investment in micro and time. It would make more sense to leave the stats the way it is that way OKW players have a more diverse approach in either going PII or Flaktruck now.

No one is going to use PII anymore with these changes.

I actually really like the patch. You have to keep in mind the point of the patch is to draw the factions closer together and help them be better balanced against one another, but without the ability to solve all our problems in one go.

I would also like to point out the modders have done a wonderful job of responding in very detailed comments to people placing legitimate ideas and who avoid flaming. You are getting updates right now before it goes live with a chance to make changes! Take advantage of it, and don't whine please.

Some changes are still questionable and I am glad to see the modders evaluating these. I don't think the Stug E should have a TWP ability at all. This is an AI tank, with the ability to support against light vehicles, it should not function as a crappy AI tank with the ability to stun other vehicles. A barrage may be more in line with its actual design and would help it last into the late game by keeping it further back at times.

Sniper changes are very powerful, will have to play and see how these work out. Significantly impacts Wehrmacht more since they have so much sunk when they go into an early sniper strat.

Guards may be a bit overnerfed here. They are clearly over performing for cost now, but this takes them back quite a bit and nearly demands the use of merge for them to stay cost effective.

222 damage is now more consistent and cost is fairer. I like these changes. Spotting scope adjustment is nice, since it was silly when applied to this unit before, and was completely forgotten about by Relic for more than 3 years now.

PG's with G43's is a tough nut to crack. Does giving all of them G43's (as Machine suggested) work? The idea of a sniper squad was really nice, but predictably unfair, but good thinking to try. Could PG's with G43's also be offered an activated suppression ability at some munition cost? This would help them in their role of AI and infantry flanking, while also providing a more nuanced way to upgrade their power. [Thinking something along line of G43 from COH1]

It would be nice units capturing without cloak

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Did you guys also talk about territory flag (no)clipping? I had a lot of appreciation for that since it helped pathing a lot. Of course it looks stupid, so.. ?

These soviets nerfs are so retarded. Seriously.

Taking flamers AND increasing vet requirements on penals? Why? It should be one or another, not both at the same time (the reason why penal vetted so fast was BECAUSE of flamers)

also, guards are a joke now, they only pose a threat to light vehicles. Why not make button better so they can be useful late game? (can anyone explain the grenade changes?)

I have yet to see how T70 is now, because it was a piece of shit. (just because noobs got rekt by rng doesn't mean the unit was good.)

just realized you nerfed Pgrens recieved accuracy... are you guys crazy? The most manpower draining unit in the game as it was... change it back

just realized you nerfed Pgrens recieved accuracy... are you guys crazy? The most manpower draining unit in the game as it was... change it back

Read again.

Vet 1 now grants 0.84 received accuracy bonus
Vet 2 received accuracy bonus reduced from 0.71 to 0.84 (~0.71 total)

They're saying that they have the *same* received accuracy bonus by the time they reach vet 2, but you now get half of it at vet 1 so that the squad is more likely to actually reach vet 2. It smooths out that stupid power spike.

They're saying that they have the *same* received accuracy bonus by the time they reach vet 2, but you now get half of it at vet 1 so that the squad is more likely to actually reach vet 2. It smooths out that stupid power spike.

And, of course, dulls the pain of vetting PGs against double weapons

(Hail elchino7 [Pikachu bias has nothing to do with it])

It also sounds like you haven't played the mod, I encourage you to do so and I'm sure you'll see for yourself it plays out much better than you realise.

Except I had... I know you are thrilled about what you're working on, just like I love all the changes I made in my mods, but I really don't expect anyone to share that sentiment with me.

There's actually a lot more changes to the USF Mortar than the notes display. Due to a few issues with the USF Mortar, we started again from scratch with a new unit which is a clone of the Wehrmacht Mortar. Fromt he Wehrmacht Mortar, it then has the changes noted in the patch notes. This means that on top of what is listed, the USF Mortar has a slower barrage speed and it doesn't get the scatter bonus at vet 1, which was probably the strongest thing about it.

That's unclear. The only real discernible difference I saw from my tests were the shortened range so it's not like I could take that knowledge into account with what I was seeing. You may know exactly what has been changed and what to look for as a result, but those of us trying to test it and provide feedback aren't going to know that.

We actually experimented with the PPSH change at first but decided not to go with it. Firstly Relic didn't like this change as it was cut from the May Balance Preview as it overlapped with Shock Troops. But secondly it was a liability for close quarters combat maps, of which there is now a lot. PPSH upgrade would have either been a thing worthless in most maps and then overpowered in some such as Rustwork Essen, Caen, Bryansk Forest etc. It was a risk we didn't want to go with. DP's would probably make penals even stronger, and would overlap with Guards. You have to remember that Penal Rifles are incredibly powerful, it's not like Conscripts where you're upgrading from weak rifles, so by giving them a munitions upgrade, it would have to make them even stronger which is the opposite of our intention.

That's fair, although it's worth pointing out that there's considerable overlap between stock units and doctrinal units. Also, if the point of this patch is to make more viable choices, then assuming a Guards commander outright is rather self defeating. And I am furthermore very aware of how powerful SVTs are. Which is why they might mitigate the power of a stationary LMG so that it might not be as considerable a buff. You've got to remember that not all criticism comes from a place of ignorance. I would also suggest not to balance a faction around the supposed imbalances of maps. Maps come after faction design. And the metagame comes after both. Don't rule options out because of what comes *after* the faction. And ya'll should certainly not be trying to balance based on the metagame or worse yet, trying to predict the meta and make preemptive adjustments.

And in May, those PPShes were on top of the flamethrowers, which was indeed overkill.

There's a lot more to it than just that, as many of the other changes in the mod directly help this. Penals are Guards will no longer be outscaling Grenadiers and the Light Tank nerfs will greatly help Wehrmacht infantry stay alive into the late game so Wehrmacht aren't behind on squads. Riflemen are also losing double M1919's, and they are also getting a nerf to their vet 3 Received accuracy bonus. This one accidentally wasn't documented in the change notes (my bad) but it's definitely in there. So Grenadiers and Panzer Grenadiers will definitely be scaling a bit better.

Okay, I get that, but the issue with Wehrmacht scaling in the lategame isn't that they can't get to the lategame, it's that once they get there they lose the war of attrition through instagib squad wipes. In my experiences in game and from countless discussions on these forums are how regardless of vet, grens get gibbed in the lategame because they clump up in cover and while pathing for every shell that comes their way. It's always been about keeping them alive in the late game more than getting them there.

It was only very recently that this attrition began at t0. Fixing that issue still won't address lategame wehrmacht scaling.

But one thing that could happen and that could be tested would adjusting cover search radius on squads. Just a thought. Those are the sorts of things that are most advantageous to test with these preview patches, IMO.

Regarding British, we had some changes in mind to do with Double Brens, but to prevent double Brens it required some other changes to compensate which were out of scope and cut by Relic. We are working on ways to try and include this in a more concise way so we can get this through.

But ultimately there is lots of other underlying causes as to why Wehrmacht infantry are weak, but they were lots of other issues that requires some big changes which were out of scope for this small-scale and limited patch. This includes things like Demos, Rocket Arty, HE SHermans, Pershings, Cromwells, Comets etc.

And that's the thing. While it is unfortunate that the scope of this patch is so limiting, I understand that you're probably all very eager to make changes. But for both of these reasons ya'll should try to produce a few testable changes that people can feasibly test and respond to. Don't go nuts making changes just for the sake of making changes.

PG's with G43's is a tough nut to crack. Does giving all of them G43's (as Machine suggested) work? The idea of a sniper squad was really nice, but predictably unfair, but good thinking to try. Could PG's with G43's also be offered an activated suppression ability at some munition cost? This would help them in their role of AI and infantry flanking, while also providing a more nuanced way to upgrade their power. [Thinking something along line of G43 from COH1]

Hey I like the increased sight range. Range > *

And it depends on which version of G43? Originally the G43 suppression only slowed movement. I pushed like mad in 2.602 for G43s to apply actual suppression, which they did, although I am still of the opinion it should've been like BAR suppression. But the point and click one squad pin fit the whole style of PE.

Okay, I get that, but the issue with Wehrmacht scaling in the lategame isn't that they can't get to the lategame, it's that once they get there they lose the war of attrition through instagib squad wipes. In my experiences in game and from countless discussions on these forums are how regardless of vet, grens get gibbed in the lategame because they clump up in cover and while pathing for every shell that comes their way. It's always been about keeping them alive in the late game more than getting them there.

Smith already said the mod tools that they are limited to prevents them from solving this by the direct method

But if they're mentioning HE Shermans, Pershings, rocket arty, etc. as contributing factors as I'd damn well say they are too, they can fix it by nerfing those!

I know the limitations of mod tools well. I've spent countless hours testing different ways to improve the pathing and clumping issues. Squad speeds (mostly due to facing and rotation), cover search radius, and yes, formations. Improving cover searching behavior I think would be one of the more effective ways of giving all squads a better chance to survive instagibs/4man+ kills.

And like I said, as unfortunate that the scope of the patch and the restrictions of the mod tools disallows any major fixes to the game, it means special attention should be paid to what can be changed. Honestly, making the USF mortar appropriate will rock the metagame in major ways alone.

I just tried the luchs and stug-e (the correct one) in cheatmod a bit. Both seem to deal damage in a very consistent manner, which is good.

That said, both feel very weak in damage actually dealt. Even at point-blank their DPS just feels meh. Using them as long range harassers seems to be their role now since there's definitely no punishment for rushing either vehicle with infantry.

Basically, they have no shock value any more. That's probably a very good thing, but it may take some excellent micro for them to stay alive long enough to pay off their investment.

Basically, they have no shock value any more. That's probably a very good thing, but it may take some excellent micro for them to stay alive long enough to pay off their investment.

Ain't kiting the easier micro though? "Whoa stuff's getting closer, better reverse". Obviously not game-closing/ruining as the shock lights we know so well (and rushing them into a gap of course had a lot to with being kinda broken), but conceptually it should be simpler, since getting closer would (well, should) mean more risk. For example, an M20 that mostly only dicked around soon after being built gets to do nothing else but lay mines and scout for the remaining 25 minutes while a Puma's still got a pretty good chance to shoot at tanks later and survive it.

I know, that my request is not in high priority, but can you also fixed this icons in doctrines and wrecks:
Wrecks - KV-8 (use KV-1’s portrait), KV-2 (use KV-1’s portrait), M4C Sherman (use M4A3’s portrait from Steppes)

DSHK-38– Wrong call-in button icon. Instead of crew's portrait like for all other call-in infantry, it has Dshk-38.
Should be like this, but with other emblem (2 big bullets insted of 3 small ones):


HM-38 - give it unique icon shield.


M-42 - Weapon on the call-in button icon looks in the right bottom corner, when all other at-guns and infantry weapons looks in the left bottom corner.


KV-8 – Wrong button icon. Should be icon of tank instead of icon of his ability. I have seen correct (on bulletins and in cheatmode) icon in the game, you don't have to create it.


Wehrmacht arty officer. Also wrong icon.


And one quality of life change - icon-shield for 12.7 HMG. At the moment only DSHK-38 has unique icon-shield (two big bullets instead of 3 small), but if it recrewed by other factions, it get standart icon-shield with 3 small bullets.
Also, give this icon-shield for M2HB too.

And a little bit more (some things are outdated): https://trello.com/c/6biRdqCe/121-icon-bugs

The new Piats are a joke...cause the penetrate all the time, are cheep, very easy spamable...wtf relic?

U said that volks with schrecks was OP...and give other faction with the best AT possibiltys (thei AT gun and tulips are very OP in so many ways...espacily in teamgames...a 3 sec stun is a dead from every heavy tank)

The new Piats are a joke...cause the penetrate all the time, are cheep, very easy spamable...wtf relic?

U said that volks with schrecks was OP...and give other faction with the best AT possibiltys (thei AT gun and tulips are very OP in so many ways...espacily in teamgames...a 3 sec stun is a dead from every heavy tank)

To be fair, balance in bigger teamgames 2v2+ is impossible. Also the guys are focusing (mainly) on 1v1 balance, to a lesser degree 2v2.

+ hand-held AT was always just a spam in them, so nothing will change.

Cheers