Relic wants your vote about balance

That's a weird poll. I guess they'll considere the 3-4 first concerns and try to give an answer.
Imo, T70/Stuart nerf would probably give more room mid game to Ostheer right now.
It is difficult to balance USF mortar without making it useless or removing it.

why there's no multiple choice? I'd really like to select all of this

No-tech call-in spam + light-meta rush are heavily intertwined and are a race to the bottom, basically.

If you don't do both you will be at a severe disadvantage to somebody that abuses both.

Even if you ignore the massive fuel cost difference, the other options actually would cost you a decent amount of manpower:
- Teching up
- Buying the AT necessary to counter an (240MP-ish) light-vehicle
While you are being suckered in, your opponent is benefiting from a massive discount in manpower costs. Since manpower shortage leads to loss of field presence you are basically throwing the game.

If the opponent's full-meta playstyle is making teching prohibitive for you, of course you need to buy into a call-in commander. That's why we keep seeing the same 3 Ostheer doctrines day-in day-out.

If you think that faction X (say Ostheer) should be somehow exempt from these rules try playing USF against a decent Mechanised Assault Ostheer player with the following limitations in your playstyle:
- No stuart
- No call-ins (until you have teched up)
- (no mortars, obviously)

If the player is any decent at all, you are going to see how a full-meta Ostheer can faceroll over any non-meta USF strat. This is why all of the bullshit needs to be washed away at the same time. Not just parts of it.

Call-in doctrines and light vehicle over-dominance are the whip that's forcing every player to go for the same copy-paste build-order game-in game-out (mostly because there's only 1 decent light vehicle per faction).

I don't agree.

Call-in strat is not something people assume from the beggining.
If you had great strat and plenty of fuel, you will probably go for Panzer IV as fast as you can.
As a SU, you will try to use your early advantage to get T70 or fast rush for T34.

You don't pick Stuge E, Puma, Sherman or KV1 when you have advantage. When you have one, you tech.

On the other hand, your opponent who is on a backfoot can stay in game only thanks to call ins (Ostwind, M10, Stug E, Puma, KV, Sherman etc).

IMO call ins are your last chance to stay in game when early game wasn't for you.

Now, if you force all call ins for tech what chances for staying in game players on a backfoot would have? None.

Call ins give great opportunity to strike back when losing, to stay in game, give a chance to survive and win. Without call ins game would be boring AF.

They are "emergency" commanders mostly and it's really good there are such.
It gives great taste when player has a chance to stay in game thanks to call ins.
Without them we wouldn't see like 90% of epic comebacks we saw.

If Ostwind would be like Centaur, enemy would have nothing to laugh. ^^

I think you play to many with axis to speak about it .

I don't agree.

Call-in strat is not something people assume from the beggining.
If you had great strat and plenty of fuel, you will probably go for Panzer IV as fast as you can.
As a SU, you will try to use your early advantage to get T70 or fast rush for T34.

You don't pick Stuge E, Puma, Sherman or KV1 when you have advantage. When you have one, you tech.

On the other hand, your opponent who is on a backfoot can stay in game only thanks to call ins (Ostwind, M10, Stug E, Puma, KV, Sherman etc).

IMO call ins are your last chance to stay in game when early game wasn't for you.

Now, if you force all call ins for tech what chances for staying in game players on a backfoot would have? None.

Call ins give great opportunity to strike back when losing, to stay in game, give a chance to survive and win. Without call ins game would be boring AF.

They are "emergency" commanders mostly and it's really good there are such.
It gives great taste when player has a chance to stay in game thanks to call ins.
Without them we wouldn't see like 90% of epic comebacks we saw.

It's quite simple.

If you are at T2 and have the Mechanised Assault commander, you have 2 options:
- Tech to T3 and buy a P4
- Buy 2 Stug-E's right off the bat

I am not a fuel-fetischist, so I will talk to you in terms of Manpower:
The first option costs 640 manpower
The second option costs 400 manpower(for 2 Stug-E's)
For comparison, the manpower cost of a tiger is also 640.

(the respective fuel costs are 230 and 140)

No-tech call-in cheese is the game's way of letting you buy your first Tiger at at the same cost it would take you to make your first P4.

If you believe that no-tech call-ins somehow enrich the game:
- When was the last time you saw somebody tech T1-to-T4 and actually win a game? How much do you have to outplay your opponent to actually pull this off
- When was the last time you saw somebody shun call-in-free commanders in competitive play?
- You mention comebacks being impossible without no-tech call-ins. Wouldn't light vehicle meta also happen to be the same reason you were knocked out in the first place?

Without the mechanism that will cause such drastic knock-outs, the game no longer requires a mechanism for such drastic come-backs either.

I have no idea, why you still are so mad about the USA mortar.

Wehrmacht mortar is also strong, so its fine for me.

In my humble opinion, yes, the OST mortar is significantly better than Soviet mortars.

However, the performance gap between the USF mortar and the OST mortar is enormously bigger than that of the OST mortar and the Soviet mortar.

I would, sometimes, consider picking 2 soviets mortar instead of 1 OST mortar (assuming I don't mind about popcap). However, I would never trade 1 USF mortar for 2 OST mortars. The raw stats are just that good.

Then, there's also the question of respective army compositions in the early game.

add another option : all

All + more

It's quite simple.

If you are at T2 and have the Mechanised Assault commander, you have 2 options:
- Tech to T3 and buy a P4
- Buy 2 Stug-E's right off the bat

I am not a fuel-fetischist, so I will talk to you in terms of Manpower:
The first option costs 640 manpower
The second option costs 400 manpower(for 2 Stug-E's)
For comparison, the manpower cost of a tiger is also 640.

(the respective fuel costs are 230 and 140)

No-tech call-in cheese is the game's way of letting you buy your first Tiger at at the same cost it would take you to make your first P4.

If you believe that no-tech call-ins somehow enrich the game:
- When was the last time you saw somebody tech T1-to-T4 and actually win a game? How much do you have to outplay your opponent to actually pull this off
- When was the last time you saw somebody shun call-in-free commanders in competitive play?
- You mention comebacks being impossible without no-tech call-ins. Wouldn't light vehicle meta also happen to be the same reason you were knocked out in the first place?

Without the mechanism that will cause such drastic knock-outs, the game no longer requires a mechanism for such drastic come-backs either.

It's not that you can get X call ins for 1 tech unit.

It's more like "I can get Panzer 4 at 4CPs or 2 Stugs E at 7CPs.
So, you prefer more expensive but way earlier Pz4 or cheaper but later Stugs?

Do you prefer 2 M4C Shermans at 10CPs or 2 T34 at 6CPs?
Why people rush for T34/85 instead of waiting for IS2 or M4C Sherman?
Becasue it's all about timing, not the price.

Not sure what do you mean by first question.
Nobody shuns call-in commanders becasue they are safe card.
When you feel game is in your favour you don't pick call ins (Guard Motor as an example).
I don't see any connection between light vehicles and call ins. Sure, you call in Puma or Stuge E to counter T70 or Stuart but it's because of Ostheer has problems in generel with fighting light vehicles. None faction except OST has problems vs light vehicles.

Tie Tiger to T4 and you won't see it ever again in 1v1.

I guess I'll vote for the USF mortar, hope they remove it and buff and/or make grenades more accesible, sometimes it's better not to build the damn thing to avoid the mere risk of it being stolen.

Why would I need to choose one of those balance concerns? It´s all of them.

Ostheer Panther being shit isn´t even on the list.

My hopes for a quality balance patch are pretty low.

Why would I need to choose one of those balance concerns? It´s all of them.

Ostheer Panther being shit isn´t even on the list.

My hopes for a quality balance patch are pretty low.

Have they ever been high?

I think they'll make changes to all the options and will use the stats to determine how strong they should be. It's a weak way to do it but on the other hand, if you could choose multiple options, the data they received might be useless. Who knows. . . Probably not Relic ^^


Patch... Where's the hype train!?

sign in to vote?! COME ON
I never had any problems with light vehicles to be honest.
On my list are the USF mortar, double lmgs for brits & USF, wehrmacht infantry and the lack of viable commanders (especially wehrmacht)

It's not that you can get X call ins for 1 tech unit.

It's more like "I can get Panzer 4 at 4CPs or 2 Stugs E at 7CPs.
So, you prefer more expensive but way earlier Pz4 or cheaper but later Stugs?

Do you prefer 2 M4C Shermans at 10CPs or 2 T34 at 6CPs?
Why people rush for T34/85 instead of waiting for IS2 or M4C Sherman?
Becasue it's all about timing, not the price.

Not sure what do you mean by first question.
Nobody shuns call-in commanders becasue they are safe card.
When you feel game is in your favour you don't pick call ins (Guard Motor as an example).
I don't see any connection between light vehicles and call ins. Sure, you call in Puma or Stuge E to counter T70 or Stuart but it's because of Ostheer has problems in generel with fighting light vehicles. None faction except OST has problems vs light vehicles.

Tie Tiger to T4 and you won't see it ever again in 1v1.

You are really confused. The reason you see t34/85 instead of IS-2 or M4C is guards. If you hadn't noticed the penal + guards combo is ruling the game currently. The reason why soviets can afford to tech even when facing call-ins is largely due to the lead they get from the penal guards and t70.

Mr Smith is right. Call ins and light vehicles need to change at the same time.

Ugh...they want us to pick one because they have no resources assigned to the game. At least pretend to care. USF mortar is going to win this one hands down because of its amazing power, and that is stupid because we knew that the day it was introduced and modified from the beta test mortar, which was already selected but much less potent.

So this is the balance for the next six months then I guess.

You are really confused. The reason you see t34/85 instead of IS-2 or M4C is guards. If you hadn't noticed the penal + guards combo is ruling the game currently. The reason why soviets can afford to tech even when facing call-ins is largely due to the lead they get from the penal guards and t70.

Mr Smith is right. Call ins and light vehicles need to change at the same time.

Can't agree.

You can also see maxim spam followed by Guard Motor.

Apart from Guard Motor (if call ins are pure meta) we should see KV1, M4C but we don't.

Armor Company for USF isn't also meta. If you have enough fuel you will most likely tech. Armor company is there to save you a day if you were on a back foot. If you werent you gonna see Shermans followed by Pershing or Calliope.

If you have advantage as a OST you won't see Puma or Stug E. You will see Pz4 + Lighting War for Tiger and JU.

And on and on...

Call ins are not meta in sense that people only play with them.
People play with them if the screwed something in the early game and try to say in game, only when on a backfoot.

If not, 9/10 will tech instead of waiting for call ins.

If you have 200 fuel at 5CPs would you prefer waiting for 7/8CPs to call something and risking heavy loses by that time or do you prefer Panzer 4/T34/Sherman at 5CPs to bleed enemy out of all MP?

Calliope.

If you have advantage as a OST you won't see Puma or Stug E. You will see Pz4 + Lighting War for Tiger and JU.

There is a call-in for all purpose. When was the last time you saw a non call-in commander used in 1v1?

Call-ins are lame in that they let you skip tech and still have an advantage. Sometimes you used that advantage to recover. Othertimes you use that advantage to completely crush your opponent, if they didn't pick a commander without one.

Do I need to explain the advantage that a Tiger call-in gives over somebody that teched to T4 to get a Brummbar?

Relic did it just fine back then, when they put T34/85 or E8 into the main doctrine. Both tanks are cost efficient enough that neither doctrine vanished into thin air. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. They just need to be consistent with all the other doctrines.

That's pretty much it. You just need to vote on which is affecting you the most at the moment.

Thank you, you made my day

There is a call-in for all purpose. When was the last time you saw a non call-in commander used in 1v1?

Call-ins are lame in that they let you skip tech and still have an advantage. Sometimes you used that advantage to recover. Othertimes you use that advantage to completely crush your opponent, if they didn't pick a commander without one.

Do I need to explain the advantage that a Tiger call-in gives over somebody that teched to T4 to get a Brummbar?

Relic did it just fine back then, when they put T34/85 or E8 into the main doctrine. Both tanks are cost efficient enough that neither doctrine vanished into thin air. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. They just need to be consistent with all the other doctrines.

It depends what do you mean by this, since for example for Ostheer best commander are best with Tiger. In oter words it's hard to show a doctrine without call in at all and if picked one, its abilities are far worse than the one with call in.

On the other hand, Brummbar has it's own advantage. It's on the field way before Tiger.

I always see it on the same way. Get more expensive but faster tech unit or wait and risk losing trying to get Stug E.

Again, becasue I see no asnwer for this. Do you prefer 5CPs Panzer 4 to crush enemy, or waiting for 7CPs to call 2x Stuge E when enemy already has T34 and second is on a way?

Each way has its pros and cons.

Call ins give great flavour to the game, they make battles epic when you are holding with 3-4 point and then boom ISU hits the field and wrecks enemy (who should have been prepared for it).

Tech units are more expensive but they hit field way sooner - that's their advantage.

Now, tie all call ins to tech and see how this game becomes boring AF, without comebacks from backfoot, without any decisions like "Tech or should I wait 2more CPs? But of so, I'm risking defeat" etc etc.

Remove call ins and see how this games will become more competitive, yes, but also boring (I'm not lookinf for ultra competitive game. Im looking a exciting game)

Allies have the superior infantry and can support them with massable, excellent mediums. That is the current issue.

all
osteer 4 man wipe squad

Pretty much the entire meta of the game is predicated on bad or wildly asymmetric balance choices so I don't see much changing even with a patch, except for possibly USF falling out like last year or Ost being #1 overall again. (Not OP, just good.)

-USF mortar is literally retarded.
-Ost sniper is also literally retarded.
-222 countering T70, AEC, and Stuart is retarded.
-UKF lack of snare- retarded.
-OKW and US tech structure... still retarded.(Volks that are 10 MP more than Cons is also retarded.)
-Double LMG rifles/tommies is retarded.
-Call-ins outside of early game vehicles and heavies-retarded.
-4 man squads for Ost- retarded.
-rifle grenades-retarded.
-Soviet infantry design-retarded.
-UKF lack of mortar/mortar pit is retarded.
-commander balance for Non Soviet, non UKF is retarded.

Pretty much all the non-design bullshit has to be swept away in one patch or there will more tears, and even more retarded more balance choices because of said tears.