Title pretty much sums it up. Despite its huge cost and specialised role it cannot be used without spending additional resources and popcap on AT. In 1v1 its cost makes it very difficult to purchase plus you will have already purchased substantial AT if you've survived to that point. In team games it is unable to manoeuvre around the larger battlefields and despite being exclusively an AT unit is vulnerable to pretty much any kind of allied AT.
Is there ever a situation where this thing is worth building? While it was perhaps OP at some point in the distant past, that point is long gone after nerfs to its range, rear armour & abilities while allied TDs have all had long-range pen buffs.
If it is indeed a bad unit, what should be done to fix it? My thoughts are that it needs a range buff (possibly alongside a damage nerf), and a small buff to its acceleration so it can move and kite better. An alternative would simply be to reduce the cost, acknowledging the inherent limitations and vulnerabilities of the unit.
White Elefant
23 Aug 2016, 02:32 AM
#1
Posts: 247
23 Aug 2016, 03:18 AM
#2
Posts: 245
If you and your 2v2 teammate just talk and work together, and are competent, there is no reason to ever lose an Elephant. They are so good in 2v2, at least. Yeah, too specialized for 1v1 maybe, but dynamite in team games. Obviously you need to use the good elephant doctrine, with the spotting scope.
23 Aug 2016, 06:39 AM
#3
Posts: 253
Elephants can win the game by their sheer existence. They counter every allied tank in the game with heavy damage and super range. The only thing bad about them is their cost, popcap and limited only against Tanks/emplacements. If you have an Army that fills the gap, you have won the game.
23 Aug 2016, 07:10 AM
#4
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
That thing is still op on certain maps and mostly in 3v3 and 4v4. On the other hand, it's often (along with it's big brother the JT) useful against emplacements and tank destroyers which are too strong because allied artillery wipes the floor with axis at-guns.
 | Playercard of RedT3rror | |||||||||||||||
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23 Aug 2016, 07:31 AM
#5
Posts: 2561
It's waaay too powerful in teamgames to receive any sort of straight buff. It as, well as well as it's big brother the jagdtiger, can be a near impossible obstacle to overcome. Largely because it lacks any real counter other then dedicating into extremely risky flanks, that can be impossible to pull off in teamgames. I've seen players quit even matched games simply because an elephant arrived on field.
Receiving a buff without somehow lowering their effect in teamgames, would break anything over 1v1s.
I'm voting it's fine, but honestly I don't think so. I would much rather a balance for these units that's more equal across all gamemodes.
Receiving a buff without somehow lowering their effect in teamgames, would break anything over 1v1s.
I'm voting it's fine, but honestly I don't think so. I would much rather a balance for these units that's more equal across all gamemodes.
23 Aug 2016, 07:47 AM
#6
Posts: 247
See I get what you guys are saying and it sounds great on paper, but I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw the Elefant have a decisive impact on a match in the post-WFA era. All I've seen is it either being called in to seal a game that is already nearly won, or a last-ditch attempt that fails.
Part of that is due to Elefant being eclipsed by the JT, which is much better while not costing that much more. The extra range makes a huge difference; not only does it give the JT more opportunities to make use of its firepower it also enables it to engage from a safer distance.
Part of that is due to Elefant being eclipsed by the JT, which is much better while not costing that much more. The extra range makes a huge difference; not only does it give the JT more opportunities to make use of its firepower it also enables it to engage from a safer distance.
23 Aug 2016, 09:14 AM
#7
Posts: 191
Part of that is due to Elefant being eclipsed by the JT, which is much better while not costing that much more. The extra range makes a huge difference; not only does it give the JT more opportunities to make use of its firepower it also enables it to engage from a safer distance.
Arent the Elefant and the JT on different factions from eachother though?
23 Aug 2016, 10:12 AM
#8
Posts: 484
See I get what you guys are saying and it sounds great on paper, but I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw the Elefant have a decisive impact on a match in the post-WFA era. All I've seen is it either being called in to seal a game that is already nearly won, or a last-ditch attempt that fails.
But I think this is inevitable for this kind of unit. If you're on the back foot, you don;t have the resources to get it out, and it won't save you anyway. If the situation is balanced, and yet you've got the resources, it might have a decisive effect. And if you're winning, you've got the resources and use it to close the game.
I suggest that the first and last are more common than the one in the middle. This is a finisher unit; it's usually there to close a game out, not to win it. Actually using a unit like this before you are secure is inherently risky because of its weaknesses. I think this is performing perfectly well.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
23 Aug 2016, 12:20 PM
#9
Posts: 1701
Elefant is fine
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
23 Aug 2016, 14:38 PM
#10
Posts: 558 | Subs: 1
i really dont wanna jump on the nice person train, but pls, gib playercard
you are seriously asking "is ele worth to build"? are you kidding me?
you are seriously asking "is ele worth to build"? are you kidding me?
23 Aug 2016, 15:41 PM
#11
Posts: 1217
It´s not fine. It´s dead the moment it is attacked. I´m a high level player so l2p issues are out of the question. It is the vehicle in the game that is most easily swarmed, can´t properly reverse and even when supported can be defeated for cost in a suicide rush.
The high cost makes it incredibly hard to support to begin with. And to counter three T-34s swarming it, you need two Paks. This however is an absolute overinvestment in AT - that additionaly has to be placed in one area - and any smart Allied player will bumrush you with infantry.
Even if it stays alive for some time it mostly delivers one shot and then the enemy can escape. Chasing vehicles is not possible due to low speed and the high inaccuracy when on the move. 70 range is also lackluster.
Not building that unit any longer.
The high cost makes it incredibly hard to support to begin with. And to counter three T-34s swarming it, you need two Paks. This however is an absolute overinvestment in AT - that additionaly has to be placed in one area - and any smart Allied player will bumrush you with infantry.
Even if it stays alive for some time it mostly delivers one shot and then the enemy can escape. Chasing vehicles is not possible due to low speed and the high inaccuracy when on the move. 70 range is also lackluster.
Not building that unit any longer.
23 Aug 2016, 16:51 PM
#12
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
The unit has little to no function in 1v1, where such a large amount of dedicated AT is impossible to pull off. In team games, even 2v2, this becomes a real problem very quickly. It and JT have minimal function in 1v1 but a single buff to these units would immediately make team games end as soon as they appeared on the field. As it stands I think they are too good in team games and yet the elephant is useless in 1v1.
Don't forget it also has 70 range old target weak point, and spots for itself with scopes, certainly an amazing vehicle.
Don't forget it also has 70 range old target weak point, and spots for itself with scopes, certainly an amazing vehicle.
23 Aug 2016, 16:55 PM
#13
Posts: 955
Of course it is useless in 1vsl. Dat's not a mode for anything heavy. But in 2vs2 it is usually GG once it arrives, if you cover and keep it behind the line
"Nice. Very impressive. Now let´s see Paul Allen´s playercard."
23 Aug 2016, 17:34 PM
#14
Posts: 609
If there was a way to balance it for 1v1s without having it absolutely dominate team games, I'd say change it, but I really don't see how that's possible.
23 Aug 2016, 17:41 PM
#15
Posts: 2561
If there was a way to balance it for 1v1s without having it absolutely dominate team games, I'd say change it, but I really don't see how that's possible.
It's problem is that it's a unit of only extremes. You could probably reduce those extremes (less health or range), or increase vulnerabilities to counters (more damage from arty, more pen from infantry AT) they could then probably lower the price to make it more attainable.
23 Aug 2016, 22:19 PM
#16
Posts: 276
I deploy it sometimes when I'm stomping a 1v1. usually whenever i forget to switch my commanders after doing some 2v2s
I am not responsible for anything I say.
24 Aug 2016, 02:27 AM
#17
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
The unit serves 1 single purpose: good on narrow teamgame maps (3v3+) and/or counter to heavies. This means you should only go for the Ele doctrines to counter ISU152 >> rest of heavies. If someone is for some reason spamming TDs (Su85/Su76, Jackson, KINDA Firefly but be careful for Tullips) make a judgement if you are fine on the AI department and if you can recover/trade the cost of the Ele with the enemy tanks. You'll mostly be the heavy AT and your partner should carry on the other areas.
It forces teching for your opponent (AT guns, Zooks/Piats, medium spam) so don't fall in tunnel vision and make the proper counter tech once the Ele has done it's job.
You won't see too much action out this commander due to:
-ISU 152 not as meta as before.
-If using Jaeger armor, Howitzer not been meta (both B4 and 152) therefore not requiring Stuka.
-KV1
-KV2
-Churchill
-Using it to counter IS2/Pershing/Comet is really map and composition (both yours and opponent) dependant.
It forces teching for your opponent (AT guns, Zooks/Piats, medium spam) so don't fall in tunnel vision and make the proper counter tech once the Ele has done it's job.
You won't see too much action out this commander due to:
-ISU 152 not as meta as before.
-If using Jaeger armor, Howitzer not been meta (both B4 and 152) therefore not requiring Stuka.
-KV1
-KV2
-Churchill
-Using it to counter IS2/Pershing/Comet is really map and composition (both yours and opponent) dependant.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Aug 2016, 07:37 AM
#18
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
2v2
Elephant
Hull down
Command Pz 4
Minsk Pocket
Elephant
Hull down
Command Pz 4
Minsk Pocket
24 Aug 2016, 10:29 AM
#19
Posts: 484
There is no reason that a given commander, or a given unit, should be appropriate to all maps and game modes. It would be perfectly reasonable to select a loadout that is tuned to a specific map, and the game specifically facilitates this.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
24 Aug 2016, 13:47 PM
#20
Posts: 284 | Subs: 1
2v2
Elephant
Hull down
Command Pz 4
Minsk Pocket
y not 3v3
Rzhev Winter
choose Jeager Armor doctrine
Elafant + scope
Send him guarding mid VP
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