Ostheer Grenadiers

Correct. The point is not that they are better than grenadiers that frustrates me, the point that frustrates me is why I can't do the same with Ostheer. Grenadiers's design dictates that they stand still and in cover to be effective, yet allied counterparts are running up to grenadiers in cover with double lmg upgrades firing on the move and negating this design completely. (not even adding the terminator USF mortar to this equation)

I don't mind allied double lmg upgrades as long as I could double upgrade grenadiers too. But if we mention this, grenadiers would be OP, even when they need to stand still to use these double lmgs. Meanwhile USF riflemen and UKF infantry sections are fine running around with their double lmg upgrades firing on the move and destroying support weapons in their wake by simply a-moving up to them, simply because they cost 120 munitions to get these weapons.

This isn't balanced if it negates another faction's design whilst also not giving this other faction the same effectiveness in upgrades. The cost to get this functionality isn't a valid argument since every Ostheer player would be happy to pay 120 munitions for double upgraded lmg42 grenadiers, but they can't.

This issue is unacceptable.

Uhhhhhhh, no. Except Obersoldaten, maybe Commandos and Paratroopers, no units can fire LMGs on the move. BARs are different story, because they are not LMGs, they are assault rifles by damage profile. You might want to try playing the so much hated other side before complaining on the forums. Having said that, I also think that buffing the LMGs a little and limiting them to 1 per squad would be healthy for the game. Except DP-28s, one LMG per squad should be enough. The 2 x DP-28 upgrade for Cons with tier 4 also seems like a brilliant idea, making the Conscripts actually somewhat useful in combat, other than throwing AT nades.

I'm pretty sure the issue here is that grenadiers lack the ability to get upgrades to compete with other infantry late game (other than squad spacing, but that's another story). Grenadiers are balanced early game but in late game they get raped by double bar rambos and one shot by any goddamned firecracker that explodes a mile away from them. Reasoning behind this is because Ostheer is supposed to rely... on their "late game armor dominance".

If UKF can get 5 man, better spacing, and the ability to purchase 2 weapon ups (AND have better armor than Ost with their racecar steamrollers and stock tigers), then why not Ostheer?

LUL coz grenadiers have PANZERFAAUST wow much Kreygasm

hey katitof, show us your playercard. then we can keep talking

I'm pretty sure the issue here is that grenadiers lack the ability to get upgrades to compete with other infantry late game (other than squad spacing, but that's another story). Grenadiers are balanced early game but in late game they get raped by double bar rambos and one shot by any goddamned firecracker that explodes a mile away from them. Reasoning behind this is because Ostheer is supposed to rely... on their "late game armor dominance".

If UKF can get 5 man, better spacing, and the ability to purchase 2 weapon ups (AND have better armor than Ost with their racecar steamrollers and stock tigers), then why not Ostheer?

LUL coz grenadiers have PANZERFAAUST wow much Kreygasm

One option would be to give Wehrmacht infantry a 5th man locked behind tier 4 research. LMGs should be buffed a bit and limited to 1 per squad, except DP-28s, of which you could still get 2, adjusting the costs of course. I am not sure about BARs though, because their damage profile is more like an assault rifle than an LMG. Especially in team games, Rifles would just get moved down by the LMG blobs if they could have only one BAR, so I think that BARs should be left as they are. Pgrens would have to be redesigned, equipped with Kar98s initially and upgrade to either 4xSTG-44 or 2xSchrek, to prevent Pgren spamming, because so early as 2 units together, 6 STGs are still formidable AI power and 4 Schreks one shot medium tanks. And about the Panzerfaust: you actually don´t realize how much of a blessing a tank snare is until you lose it.

One option would be to give Wehrmacht infantry a 5th man locked behind tier 4 research. LMGs should be buffed a bit and limited to 1 per squad, except DP-28s, of which you could still get 2, adjusting the costs of course. I am not sure about BARs though, because their damage profile is more like an assault rifle than an LMG. Especially in team games, Rifles would just get moved down by the LMG blobs if they could have only one BAR, so I think that BARs should be left as they are. Pgrens would have to be redesigned, equipped with Kar98s initially and upgrade to either 4xSTG-44 or 2xSchrek, to prevent Pgren spamming, because so early as 2 units together, 6 STGs are still formidable AI power and 4 Schreks one shot medium tanks. And about the Panzerfaust: you actually don´t realize how much of a blessing a tank snare is until you lose it.

Pgrens with kar98s? Muni upgrade for tags and shrecks? Keeping riflemen the same? Keeping bars the same whilst not diminishing terminator vet 3 received accuracy that basically gives yellow cover out of cover?

You're pushing it here lol.

Pgrens with kar98s? Muni upgrade for tags and shrecks? Keeping riflemen the same? Keeping bars the same whilst not diminishing terminator vet 3 received accuracy that basically gives yellow cover out of cover?

You're pushing it here lol.

You are aware that Panzergrenadier Stgs have roughly the same DPS (more up to range 20, less after range 25) as BARs? Having three Stgs and two Panzerschrecks on a fully upgraded Panzergrenadier squad would be a little OP. Mutually exclusive upgrades for Panzerschrecks and Stgs would avoid that problem.

im on the side of adjustment for grens
BUT
grens can also build bunkers allowing them to lock down areas as well as create staging points if resources allow
thats another tally on gren utility that is lacking on the tommy/rifle matchup

sigle arming rifles would be a way to fix multiple problems actually (make BARs a bit better to compensate of course) and help differentiate them from rangers and paras as well as diversify builds with more RE sprinkled in (assuming they maintain double equip)

i think its an idea worth exploring

But doctrinal sandbags for RM is huge.

You project it like USF has many problems that directly fight its effectiveness. But the statistics and the tourney matches show a different picture. USF stomps Ostheer into the ground and you know it.

sorry then, it wasn´t my purpose to show USF as a shitty and not powerfull faction, because it is not.


My point was to show that user that 1 faction having one "goodie" doesn´t imply that any others factions must have the same thing. it was just that what I´ve tried to show.

I wrote lots of USF examples as it is the faction I played the most....just that...


It wasn´t my intention to derail the thread or ask for USF buff....

why does USF have a mortar that denies Ostheer MG42s and Mortars leaving them only sucky grens?

why does every Allied faction have a light vehicle (especially terminator T70s !!!) and neither Ostheer nor OKW have a counter that is not unrealiable and cheesy (double 222) or simply sucks cock (Raketenwerfer)?

why do German tanks cost more while being inferior (P4 vs Cromwell) on factions that suffer like hell in the early game that you are already ressource starved in the mid game?

why do Germans rely so much on green cover and still getting wiped behind it regularly because USF and UKF have killer mortars?

why can most Allied mediums crush reliably while German ones struggle extremely with it?

why do all allies have 5 man main line infantry (with UKF upgrade) while Ostheer does not and is not better in any kind?

why are there 95% of allied dominating videos (no casts) on youtube while there have only been a few German ones for ages?

why do neither OKW nor Ostheer have access to demolition charges even though they clearly suffer the most from USF blobs?

why does only Ostheer need to create a building in order to create its mainline infantry?

why is the MG34 absolutely garbage and needs a building in order to be built?

etc.

yeah more and better examples of why 1 faction having one kind of unit doesn´t imply that others faction must have same kind of unit or the very same unit at same time and with same power and habilies...

Your answers (miles better than mine) shows perfectly why I was talking about.....In a game with asimetrical balance, any faction need to have the tools to counter any thread the opponent can throw at him, but becasuse it is asimetrical balance, one factions will have easier time counter some tipes of units while other factions struggle a bit more to counter the same threat.

Well, noob here, if I am wrong, excuse me for so many posts in this balance section where only people knowing what they are talking about should post....

Exuse if my english or my COH2 knolegde is so limited and my post didn´t show what I wanted to say.

why does USF have a mortar that denies Ostheer MG42s and Mortars leaving them only sucky grens?

why does every Allied faction have a light vehicle (especially terminator T70s !!!) and neither Ostheer nor OKW have a counter that is not unrealiable and cheesy (double 222) or simply sucks cock (Raketenwerfer)?

why do German tanks cost more while being inferior (P4 vs Cromwell) on factions that suffer like hell in the early game that you are already ressource starved in the mid game?

why do Germans rely so much on green cover and still getting wiped behind it regularly because USF and UKF have killer mortars?

why can most Allied mediums crush reliably while German ones struggle extremely with it?

why do all allies have 5 man main line infantry (with UKF upgrade) while Ostheer does not and is not better in any kind?

why are there 95% of allied dominating videos (no casts) on youtube while there have only been a few German ones for ages?

why do neither OKW nor Ostheer have access to demolition charges even though they clearly suffer the most from USF blobs?

why does only Ostheer need to create a building in order to create its mainline infantry?

why is the MG34 absolutely garbage and needs a building in order to be built?

etc.

You are one sided too often

1. If USF went for Mortar it means RE, 2x RF, Mortar vs 4 Grens so you can easily outnumber USF player.
2. What? Puma is excellent counter vs T70 and it's not cheesy. PzGrens behind cover/in building are excellent counter. Even Luchs is soft counter which can keep T70 at bay. Same with 222.
3. M10 and Cromwell are not "most".
4. Why Allies have to pay for upgrades? Why Volks have access to MP44, pzfaust and incendiary while Cons need to pick doctrine to get upgrade and pay tons of fuel for molo and at nades? We can go like this all day long.
5. What?
6. Why USF nor UKF have access to booby traps while they are non-doc for OKW (Obers) and doc for Jaeger? Why allies don't have access to 85 range tank destroyer since tey fight with heavy armored tanks? etc etc same as point 4.
7. Why OST have T0 HMG while SU need to build a builing? Why OST have AT gun and sniper in same tier? etc etc.
8. HMG34 is way better than it used to be.

sorry then, it wasn´t my purpose to show USF as a shitty and not powerfull faction, because it is not.


My point was to show that user that 1 faction having one "goodie" doesn´t imply that any others factions must have the same thing. it was just that what I´ve tried to show.

I wrote lots of USF examples as it is the faction I played the most....just that...


It wasn´t my intention to derail the thread or ask for USF buff....

Oke man my bad!

Pgrens with kar98s? Muni upgrade for tags and shrecks? Keeping riflemen the same? Keeping bars the same whilst not diminishing terminator vet 3 received accuracy that basically gives yellow cover out of cover?

You're pushing it here lol.

OK, let me put it this way: Would a 1xSTG-44 upgrade on Volks for 60 muni be good, when the STG-44 is VERY similar to BAR in terms of damage(while costing half the muni, I wonder why that is)? NO! With the upgraded LMGs, a single BAR would get outclassed quite hard. The Rifles would lose to both Grens long range and Pgrens and Volks medium/close range, basically forcing USF to go LMG doctrines and making the problem worse.

You are one sided too often

1. If USF went for Mortar it means RE, 2x RF, Mortar vs 4 Grens so you can easily outnumber USF player.
2. What? Puma is excellent counter vs T70 and it's not cheesy. PzGrens behind cover/in building are excellent counter. Even Luchs is soft counter which can keep T70 at bay. Same with 222.
3. M10 and Cromwell are not "most".
4. Why Allies have to pay for upgrades? Why Volks have access to MP44, pzfaust and incendiary while Cons need to pick doctrine to get upgrade and pay tons of fuel for molo and at nades? We can go like this all day long.
5. What?
6. Why USF nor UKF have access to booby traps while they are non-doc for OKW (Obers) and doc for Jaeger? Why allies don't have access to 85 range tank destroyer since tey fight with heavy armored tanks? etc etc same as point 4.
7. Why OST have T0 HMG while SU need to build a builing? Why OST have AT gun and sniper in same tier? etc etc.
8. HMG34 is way better than it used to be.

You make it sound like Axis are fine and Allies need some serious buffs to get competitive again lol.

OK, let me put it this way: Would a 1xSTG-44 upgrade on Volks for 60 muni be good, when the STG-44 is VERY similar to BAR in terms of damage(while costing half the muni, I wonder why that is)? NO! With the upgraded LMGs, a single BAR would get outclassed quite hard. The Rifles would lose to both Grens long range and Pgrens and Volks medium/close range, basically forcing USF to go LMG doctrines and making the problem worse.

You said pgrens in your first post, to which I repsonded. You never mentioned volks... If you actually meant to nerf pgrens, you are out of your mind lol.

You make it sound like Axis are fine and Allies need some serious buffs to get competitive again lol.

I'm pointing that saying "Why X can have A/B/C and Y not" is pointless becasue it works other way around the same.

You said pgrens in your first post, to which I repsonded. You never mentioned volks... If you actually meant to nerf pgrens, you are out of your mind lol.

The Volks were an example, since they are very similar to Riflemen in their concept, including the STG-44/BAR. I am trying to put this into a wider perspective, instead of just nerfing one unit against another and throwing the entire faction out of balance by doing so. And I also mentioned that Pgrens, Grens and Pioneers would get a 5th man locked behind tier 4 research(because until then, it is relatively balanced, it is mostly the double BAR/LMG that rapes the Axis, which do not come until much later in the match, and would be solved by having only one, but better LMG on all units, indirectly buffing Grens quite a bit). It is not a nerf, just a balance mechanic to prevent Pgren spam. Having 3xSTG-44 + Bundled Grenade is more than enough to deal with any unupgraded infantry(especially when you take into consideration the accuracy bonus from the extremely fast vet gained with Schreks), which simply should not be the case for a squad that can take half the health off a medium tank in a single volley. The singular BAR change would also affect Rifle/Volk matchup quite a bit, so I thought I would mention it too, since, you know, it is not just Ost vs USF.

Because design is ultimately f*cked up. Double LMGs on base infantries, was always a bad idea, but combined with the WFA terminator veterancy, its just BS..

Because design is ultimately f*cked up. Double LMGs on base infantries, was always a bad idea, but combined with the WFA terminator veterancy, its just BS..

Its pretty much just the dual LMGs.

You'll have advantage in numbers vs brits and actual support weapons vs USF.

If all LMGs except DP-28 would take up 2 slots, we wouldn't have any issues.

Commandos and paras could keep the ability to get dual ones, not like anyone uses them this way anyway.

All they need first just only fix more unit spacing for better survive late game explosion damage !!!!
fix veterracy or can upgrade both G43 + Mg42 is optional