Punish blobs with received accuracy penalty

7 units, guards, dense enough for the unit cards to stack on top of each other. Roughly less than 2 person's space between the 42 men. While suppressed, the guard blob still has sufficient damage output to force me to pull an Ostwind back from full health. (Around 1 quarter or more health gone I think)

Fine. Even I will concede that 7 inf units in one place can be said to be a "blob". I will even allow that this is a particularly useful example because it illustrates a blob handling two of its counters.

I'm also not going to challenge or question any of details of your account of the incident. My concern arises with the claim that events like this happen frequently enough that they constitute a problem.

Fundamentally, my scepticism derives from the fact that this doesn't seem to appear in competitive play. Or indeed, even in streamed or recorded play, as far as I am aware. Of all the stuff I've seen, I've never seen anything like this. Hell I've definitely never seen anyone field 7 guards at the same time.

And related to that is a second concern: if this is such an effective technique that it is reliably and frequently used, as you and many others appear to claim, how come we don't see it in those competitive events? If this works, if it wins games, why don't we see it when real money is on the line?

If this kind of thing is frequently and reliably happening, then I would agree that it is a problem. Convince me that it is frequent and reliable.

Instead of a received accuracy penalty, how about a received suppression penalty?

Fine. Even I will concede that 7 inf units in one place can be said to be a "blob". I will even allow that this is a particularly useful example because it illustrates a blob handling two of its counters.

I'm also not going to challenge or question any of details of your account of the incident. My concern arises with the claim that events like this happen frequently enough that they constitute a problem.

Fundamentally, my scepticism derives from the fact that this doesn't seem to appear in competitive play. Or indeed, even in streamed or recorded play, as far as I am aware. Of all the stuff I've seen, I've never seen anything like this. Hell I've definitely never seen anyone field 7 guards at the same time.

And related to that is a second concern: if this is such an effective technique that it is reliably and frequently used, as you and many others appear to claim, how come we don't see it in those competitive events? If this works, if it wins games, why don't we see it when real money is on the line?

If this kind of thing is frequently and reliably happening, then I would agree that it is a problem. Convince me that it is frequent and reliable.

In 1v1 comp, I would assume blobbing means instantly losing map control because you will have all your stuff taken all around the map.

I play mostly 2v2, so it might happen a lot more there than comps. It is also at a much lower level "than the pros", so games are longer because no one is good enough to get a quick win.

The real pain is when the blob builds up, get vetted, get increased dura, then start literally WALKING into the MG, and chopping the MG crew down before suppression xD

7 units, guards, dense enough for the unit cards to stack on top of each other. Roughly less than 2 person's space between the 42 men. While suppressed, the guard blob still has sufficient damage output to force me to pull an Ostwind back from full health. (Around 1 quarter or more health gone I think)

2 MG failed to hold them back, despite what IRL would have turned into the grinder.

So seven of his squads managed to force one of your three back? Why did you have four units less and why should three of your units beat seven of his? What about doing some crazy stuff like having a squad screen for the mg's and a mortar in the area?

So seven of his squads managed to force one of your three back? Why did you have four units less and why should three of your units beat seven of his? What about doing some crazy stuff like having a squad screen for the mg's and a mortar in the area?

2 MG, an Ostwind (supposed anti infantry device) and a P4... (forgot to mention P4)

Please tell me what mortar to get as OKW )))))

So the story changes/develops.

But seriously, even though its a fair point that seven units probably should beat three units, there's something to be said about MGs being area denial tools. The scenario as described is the exact only time when two MGs should beat that many infantry squads.

What happened is that it took too long for them to get pinned that they were still able to deal enough damage to push off the MGs and an Ostwind. (And P4 now.) Those fourteen PTRS are no joke, if we are to assume they'd all managed to hold onto all of their PTRS.

But then again, just one infantry squad support of any kind to recrew an MG would've probably been enough to pin, even if the Ostwind and other MG had to run or was killed.

But then again, just one infantry squad support of any kind to recrew an MG would've probably been enough to pin, even if the Ostwind and other MG had to run or was killed.

If they already killed the MG crews and pushed the tanks back, no single squad would've been able to recrew the MG, let alone set up and started firing and gotten a successful pin ( especially with MG34 ). There should really be an aura which changes the bigger the blob gets to counter these brainless plays against suppression platforms. Even MG42 gets countered far too easily with multiple Riflemen equipped with double m1919 and as far as I know, it's the fastest pinning MG ingame.

How about, retreat modifier, more than 3 units near each other cannot forward ret or something like that to punish blobbing.

Just thought of that the other day when I saw this topic.

Fundamentally, my scepticism derives from the fact that this doesn't seem to appear in competitive play.

that is wrong. see captain sprice' blob tactics, whether it be RE blob, volks blob or rifle blob. and yes, its effective, he has beaten top players with that

So the story changes/develops.

But seriously, even though its a fair point that seven units probably should beat three units, there's something to be said about MGs being area denial tools. The scenario as described is the exact only time when two MGs should beat that many infantry squads.

What happened is that it took too long for them to get pinned that they were still able to deal enough damage to push off the MGs and an Ostwind. (And P4 now.) Those fourteen PTRS are no joke, if we are to assume they'd all managed to hold onto all of their PTRS.

But then again, just one infantry squad support of any kind to recrew an MG would've probably been enough to pin, even if the Ostwind and other MG had to run or was killed.

P4 wasn't "pushed off", it was just there... shooting shells... and doing jack fking squat. Not a single kill.

Ostwind got pushed off though due to PTRS.

It might just had been more bad luck.

How about, retreat modifier, more than 3 units near each other cannot forward ret or something like that to punish blobbing.

Just thought of that the other day when I saw this topic.

Make it more expensive to reinforce in the field, 2 - 3 more mp per model.

or

Make it so you can only reinforce 1 squad at a time..

or

Anything that slowly has a cumulative cost for repeated use.

Edit : I am referring to usf only here as FRP costs nothing. In okw case i would eliminate some of the initial cost for an ongoing cost that adds up for continual use.

Would it be possible to change mg damage profile to area damage ? We could put negative multiplayer on target table vs inf so the damage is the same vs 1 squad but the more there are the more damage and suppression they get

Any of the penalties proposed in this thread would end up being bugged, and make the game much worse than it is now. There are lots of examples in the game where a "transient" effect unintentionally becomes permanent.

The only change that I think would help would be to add a little suppression to MG's (except for the Maxim) and maybe increase the damage of the MG34 which seems to fire rubber bullets for the trade-off of only slightly better suppression.

I have played a few 1v1's against a soviet player who liked to blob 2-3 penals and a 1-2 shocks. He was able to push through a pair of MG34's and the flakpanzer from Scavenge, even with screening infantry. It was kind of annoying. In a rematch, I replaced the flakpanzer with the aa halftrack and had much better results, even before a single walking stuka barrage wiped all of his infantry.

Want to punish blobs - improve AI abilities of artillery. Simple, would work fine with balance in general and wouldn't need to change or add more mechanics in game.

Everything is simple.

Its stupid it punished player for your incometenticy to counter his blob.

Counters are there, double hmgs, mortars, arty (rocket arty, offmap), demos, mines and AI tanks all counter blobs really well.

Also good positioned army of 4 squads > blob consisting of 4 squads

Remove Forward Retreat Points and suddenly blobbing will be way more punishing.

+1

that is wrong. see captain sprice' blob tactics, whether it be RE blob, volks blob or rifle blob. and yes, its effective, he has beaten top players with that

I have seen Sprice do many things, surprising things. I even once saw him kill a KT with nothing but a T-70 and a paid of ZIS's. But I have never seen him field seven guards, and I've never seen him simply wander a blob into an MG field.

Say what you like about Sprice, but he's too original to just brute force it out.

In 1v1 comp, I would assume blobbing means instantly losing map control because you will have all your stuff taken all around the map.

If that were true, blobbing would be self defeating; which I think it is, but apparently many people think it is not. Hence my question.

The real pain is when the blob builds up, get vetted, get increased dura, then start literally WALKING into the MG, and chopping the MG crew down before suppression xD

That's a perfectly valid concern, IMO.

So the story changes/develops.

But seriously, even though its a fair point that seven units probably should beat three units, there's something to be said about MGs being area denial tools. The scenario as described is the exact only time when two MGs should beat that many infantry squads.

Agreed in full. And if there is a problem in this scenario - and again, I would like to hear from other people so that we have confidence that this is an issue, in this scenario - then I would completely support efforts to get it fixed.

However, I'm not sure the example as given really suffices. Because the complaint was essentially that even though the Guards were suppressed (I assume) they still managed to impose enough damage output to drive off a FlakPanzer. It's possible this might be dealt with by tweaking the amount of damage that suppressed Guards can put out; it's hard to know what specifically was the issue without a replay or vid.

2 MG, an Ostwind (supposed anti infantry device) and a P4... (forgot to mention P4)

Please tell me what mortar to get as OKW )))))

If they were suppressed then drive your tank over them. He will either retreat or take massive losses.
Don't just sit a vehicle in front of an AT blob and expect to come out in front.

I also agree that mgs could suppress somewhat quicker in regard to blobs. ( Not spread out units moving at the edges of the firing arc )