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Coh2, RNG and E-sport

26 Jul 2016, 06:35 AM
#1
avatar of steffenbk1

Posts: 139

I've given it some thought, and bin thinking of what makes a game e-sport material. Well popularity first and foremost of curse. Just look at Hearthstone, that game is purely RNG, and top players can lose to who ever because he didn't draw the right cards. But for an RTS it is a lot different of cures. To put it in perspective, if you summen a minion in HS, you are sure if i attack the other enemy minion's it will do damage.

That is not the case with Coh2. The RNG of coh2 can make a unit godlike, or complete garbage. Since they all have a RNG dice attached to them.
I can in one game drop models every engagement, and in another game not drop any models but only losing the health of a squad(and even having almost no health, still have all models). Now i bring it up because i have bin going back and forth from SC2 and coh2, and realise how bad attaching this much of an amount of RNG to a game like coh2.

In SC2 i know if i shoot with a unit, it will do X amount of damage. However in coh2 i can shoot 3-4 shots and miss them all. Where my opponent can hit and penetrate every time. The lack of consistency in the game, makes your chances of winning or losing based on the dice roll and not as much on your strategies and skill, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, and that is why i didn't have faith in this game becoming an E-sport game, i think i could have had great potential to be it. Seeing how they could gotten a lot of the SC2 crowd after the game died in E-sport. But because the accuracy of any unit depends on the numbers you might get, the skill of the player will to a degree have nothing to do with the outcome.

26 Jul 2016, 06:53 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Hey, lets beat a dead horse!

CoH2 RNG is fine.
Pretty much all unpleasant RNG instances were dealt with.

If you still don't like it, this is the solution for you:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/buy-now/
26 Jul 2016, 06:54 AM
#3
avatar of Hikuran

Posts: 194

Hearthstone is E-sports because Blizzard puts money for its promotion and hence lots of tournaments being held every year.

Magic the Gathering is clearly the better game.

Relic and CoH2, on the other hand, have problems when it comes to money issue. Just look at how many money our champion can get and how many the Starcraft 2 champion can get, money can buy attractions
26 Jul 2016, 07:01 AM
#4
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 957

Yeah, it sometimes gets frustrating, but most of the time, there is nothin what could be done about it. Can you imagine how ridiculously boring the game would be if you would see two infantries aproaching against each other and be instantly able to tell "OK, player two will win but lose two models, if player one doesnt retreat on time." This is exactly why I nearly stopped playing older RTS games immidiately after learning about Man of War and Company of Heroes series

After all, the RNG can let someone get away with occasional sc%rew ups, but never lets an unexperienced new-blood player win against veterans.
26 Jul 2016, 07:13 AM
#5
avatar of Hikuran

Posts: 194

Yeah, it sometimes gets frustrating, but most of the time, there is nothin what could be done about it. Can you imagine how ridiculously boring the game would be if you would see two infantries aproaching against each other and be instantly able to tell "OK, player two will win but lose two models, if player one doesnt retreat on time." This is exactly why I nearly stopped playing older RTS games immidiately after learning about Man of War and Company of Heroes series

After all, the RNG can let someone get away with occasional sc%rew ups, but never lets an unexperienced new-blood player win against veterans.


My thoughts exactly, when luck is a "minor" factor in game it can be soooooooo interesting, Like gambling!

The uncertainty is the source of fun
26 Jul 2016, 07:27 AM
#6
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

I made a video specifically about this.

26 Jul 2016, 07:31 AM
#7
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

The CoH series, like most Relic titles, is more about atmosphere and innovation than Esports competition. RNG is central to the game and it couldn't work without it.

The way RNG is hidden and not clearly explained is a source of grief to those who want to get good at competitive play, but sad truth is those players are a minority. Most players want immersive and unpredictable campaign/comp-stomp, and RNG helps with that. Take vehicle abandons for example. They are a horrendous feature to have in competitive matches because they don't require any decision from the player, rather they are just a freebie that comes from nowhere to decide the game. However they make for a fun way of keeping things fresh for the comp stomp player who has hundreds of AI battles under his belt.

There are times when the winner may not have necessarily demonstrated more skill but that happens in all kinds of games. There certainly are times when RNG decides matches but skill matters far more.

I think a big source of frustration around RNG comes down to human nature. When the RNG goes our way, either we don't notice it as it was what we 'expect', we convince ourselves we would have won regardless, or we congratulate ourselves for the bold 'calculated' risk. On the other hand we always notice when things don't go our way. I don't think we should expect Relic to do anything about that.
26 Jul 2016, 08:09 AM
#8
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Dane casted my recent game. In this cast you can see Command Panther vs Sherman. Command Panther misses 4 first shots (3 agasint this Sherman) while Sherman penetrates Panther at max range 2 times :foreveralone:
26 Jul 2016, 09:20 AM
#9
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

I have a friend that have bad habit of keeping his sniper team under enemy mortar fire for prolonged times. Then when he ocassionally catches oneshot kill he screams "RNG!!!!11!1!". I mean, the mortar missed for like 8 shots and 9th was a direct hit.

Don't mess IN the probability of something happening if you really don't want that thing to happen.
26 Jul 2016, 09:39 AM
#10
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1021 | Subs: 1

the bad thing about coh2 is not necessarily the rng (although pseudo RNG might be good for tanks), but the lack of options to sway RNG in your favour. no side armor, horrible response times, mines direction not changeable, squad spacing,...

coh1 was definetely better in that regard, although not perfect
28 Jul 2016, 15:07 PM
#11
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 474

Agreed, I much prefer the SC/WC3 model where units cannot miss shots, except for some very specific cases and even then the probability is well known or can be easily determined. Sure there was some RNG on some abilities, but nothing as game breaking as COH.

COH is nice and all, but it can never have a serious e-sports presence with the current mechanics.
28 Jul 2016, 18:37 PM
#12
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

To put it in perspective, if you summen a minion in HS, you are sure if i attack the other enemy minion's it will do damage.


There's much more than RNG draw in Hearthstone. There are plenty of RNG attacks or even summon minions that drastically alters the outcome of a match. (Boombots, shredders, magic missiles, heck we have the epitome of RNG on Yog Saron).

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2016, 06:53 AMKatitof

CoH2 RNG is fine.
Pretty much all unpleasant RNG instances were dealt with.

Definitely this. While some things could be improved, we are far from every plane tells a story era.
28 Jul 2016, 21:56 PM
#13
avatar of shadowwada

Posts: 137

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2016, 06:53 AMKatitof
Hey, lets beat a dead horse!

CoH2 RNG is fine.
Pretty much all unpleasant RNG instances were dealt with.

If you still don't like it, this is the solution for you:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/buy-now/


vehicle abandons, weapon drops, vehicle crits, AT nade crits, mine crits, inconsistent model drop & squad damage is all fine?
28 Jul 2016, 22:28 PM
#14
avatar of RealName

Posts: 276

CoH2 is a good enough game as it is with its current RNG, but if relic wishes for more people to take it seriously as an esport, then it would need pseudo RNG to even these RNG spikes out. A more consistent RNG would definitely help a lot.
28 Jul 2016, 22:51 PM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



vehicle abandons, weapon drops, vehicle crits, AT nade crits, mine crits, inconsistent model drop & squad damage is all fine?

Currently?
Yep.
AT nades do not crit.
Mines do not crit.
Each model in squad has its own hp, it will never be consistent, because its mechanically impossible.
Vehicle abandons were reduced.
There is nothing wrong with weapon drops.
There is nothing random about vehicle crits and pretty much all are reliable, unless you are talking about T34 ram here.
28 Jul 2016, 23:04 PM
#16
avatar of United

Posts: 253

The Mine change, Max 2 casualties per mine, was one of the best changes I always wanted. Changes like this really minimize Bullshit RNG from completely costing a player the game. IF we let random explosives be random, but put a limit to the maximum amount of damage these random explosives do, we improve the RNG of the game.

EX a Riffle squad takes cover behind a haystack. With how the cover system works, the rifle squad is literally shoulder by shoulder behind the haystack. If a motar/isg round barrage is ordered, is possible but rare for the entire squad to get wiped with one shot. Everybody has been in this situation before and everyone feels cheated by the game when a fresh squad gets instantly wiped. What if only 3 soldiers max could be damaged by a single mortar round? Devastating damage is done to the squad, however the player can retreat a squad in time.
28 Jul 2016, 23:41 PM
#17
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

Another thing about RNG is you need a big sample size for it to 'even out' over time, which CoH2 matches don't always provide. Nobody really complains about RNG in infantry engagements (except a certain streamer heh) because there are so many shots fired the outcome moves towards what you expect over time.

Compare that to decisive vehicle engagements which don't happen that often. Say you commit your full-health P4 to pursuing a heavily damaged sherman, you accept there's a risk but the odds are well in your favour so you take it. Instead of getting the kill shot your next 3 shots bounce, meanwhile all his pen and you end up one tank behind when you expected to be one ahead. If that scenario was repeated you would come out ahead 9/10 times but that is irrelevant since the game is basically decided in that moment and you won't get another chance.

People don't get so salty over the randomness of say, poker because everybody understands that randomness is part of the game and can be the undoing of even the best players. Thus the problem with CoH comes down to that gap between what competitive players want/expect from the game, and the reality of the mechanics.

I also agree it would be good to have more ways to influence the RNG that don't just involve trading one risk for another.
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aerafield: I am a simple man, I build Humvees with Pathfinders and Missile Launchers inside, I am happy
Yesterday, 20:57 PM
Lady Xenarra: aerafield lamevee spammer confirmed :nahnah:
Yesterday, 20:42 PM
aerafield: those who know, know: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/s/fPk4yLIgmK
Yesterday, 15:40 PM
adamírcz: Might be onto somethin here, combine side armour existing, maps where flanking is a viable option, and hopefully also heavies actually being less manouverable than mediums (lookin at you coh2), and it might be fun gameplay
Last Monday, 13:39 PM
Willy Pete: Shouldn't coh3 heavies actually have insane front armor values? The glory days of 400+ Kt armor wouldn't be as bad when side armor is a thing. Not to say its a good idea lol
Last Friday, 23:14 PM
aerafield: But then again, maybe CoH3 superheavies should actually have insane armor values because the whole game is designed for the clumsy & inept anyway :snfPeter:
Last Friday, 23:04 PM
aerafield: It's like you have to coordinate an entire orchestra of abilities and the correct units, meanwhile your opponent just clicks his 1 superheavy tank occasionally...
Last Friday, 23:01 PM
aerafield: the giga frontal armor also made these units too oppressive in average or low ELO games
Last Friday, 22:59 PM
aerafield: Massive HP pool but reasonable amount of armor is way healthier design
Last Friday, 22:57 PM
aerafield: Say what you want, but the titanium frontal armor design of coh2 superheavies was bullshit. Too many bad players not getting punished for their bad micro because penetration RNG carries them
Last Friday, 22:57 PM
Willy Pete: Also the attack ground with the pak40 looked perfect, that Pershing should be dead
Last Friday, 19:18 PM
Willy Pete: Ahh just saw the other one that died. Some bad rng I think but there was an AT gun at med range for a chunk of that fight
Last Friday, 19:14 PM
Willy Pete: Which KT? I saw one got almost deleted but it also showed its side to a hellcat AND the m5. I think the player even admitted he got lucky
Last Friday, 19:10 PM
Lady Xenarra: I understand that the devs want to sell the Allied part of the DLC, but the KT got swiss cheesed like a COH2 bunker on treads :S
Last Friday, 15:16 PM
SupremeStefan: They should make dlc separataly for axis and alies
Last Friday, 10:28 AM
SupremeStefan: 25$ is actually a ok price for 40 abilites = 8 commanders = 4 battlegroups. But problem is that it comes in bundle
Last Friday, 10:24 AM
Willy Pete: Have they shown the actual trees yet for the new commanders? Skimmed through the deep dive today, didnt see em
Last Thursday, 22:29 PM
Rosbone: Big Tonk boners incoming :hansGASM:
Last Thursday, 17:38 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
12 Feb 2025, 14:57 PM
Lone-Wolf: Hi guys. Error code -4. Any fixes?
08 Feb 2025, 17:09 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
07 Feb 2025, 16:57 PM
SkYisTheLimiT_CoH: any coh2.org admin there ?
07 Feb 2025, 12:43 PM
Lady Xenarra: Ever the contrarian, aerafield.
07 Feb 2025, 11:59 AM
aerafield: I havent seen the new units in action yet (whose BGs will not be purchased by too many people as they are pretty expensive I recon), but I can say with 100% confidence that the Pershing needs a buff
07 Feb 2025, 02:31 AM
Lady Xenarra: I would think lots more players would come/return since there's so many iconic units being added in the new BGs. I just don't want to hear another 8+ yrs of Pershing need buff complaints
06 Feb 2025, 23:22 PM
adamírcz: If I had my supply of copium, Id say they might at least get enough money to not have to wait 5 months with problems that should be a matter of bi-weekly hotfix
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM
adamírcz: I mean, its overpriced,
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM
Rosbone: Will it help or hurt the current player base is the real question. Should add more players, but may drive many away.
06 Feb 2025, 19:17 PM
Rosbone: Yes you too can play with a persdhing for the low price of $24.99 USD. Or be the poor schlub who gets his rectum reconfigured who doesnt have the latest pay to win stuffs.
06 Feb 2025, 19:16 PM
donofsandiego: persdhing in coh 3? 😳
06 Feb 2025, 18:42 PM
Rosbone: @aerafield Ahhh, I think I made a pershing like twice in my life since that commander is pretty bad in 4s.
05 Feb 2025, 23:20 PM
aerafield: @Rosbone coh2 pershing has the same ability so, whatever. Though it's probably gonna be a 30 seconds ability to make it super broken pay to win, then 2 months later it will get "hotfixed" into a skillshot like coh2 pershing
05 Feb 2025, 22:00 PM
Rosbone: How do we feel about Pershing shooting thru multiple buildings?
05 Feb 2025, 19:43 PM
Rosbone: I am just happy Relic was smart enough to put this out now because the community was falling asleep waiting 3 months between patches. And a new/old map was shown :banana:
05 Feb 2025, 19:38 PM
aerafield: Not even the trailer can hide the trash sound effects
05 Feb 2025, 18:46 PM
Lady Xenarra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSvwH2mXje8 Well this should result in 'interesting' reactions... :rofl:
05 Feb 2025, 18:43 PM
Ginaaa: how do i send replay to get him banned?
05 Feb 2025, 00:11 AM
Ginaaa: `just caught cooper47/ maphacking
05 Feb 2025, 00:11 AM
adamírcz: Oh well, I might look it up on dickcord and try upload anyway
02 Feb 2025, 00:27 AM
adamírcz: shiit, saw clean through me
02 Feb 2025, 00:26 AM
aerafield: That's exactly what a drophacker would say
01 Feb 2025, 22:37 PM
adamírcz: Just to be clear, Im askin cause I want someone banned, not coz I would wanna synchhack
01 Feb 2025, 15:10 PM
adamírcz: Do Relic still banana people for synchhacks in CoH2 or is it only for CoH3 now
01 Feb 2025, 15:09 PM
Lady Xenarra: Great, we're all getting somewhere B-)
30 Jan 2025, 21:32 PM
Rosbone: @Lady Xenarra Yes, I am more than happy that Kill Counts were added. I apologize for the insane rant. Like everything else, if you want it done right you have to do it yourself :romeoHairDay:
30 Jan 2025, 19:44 PM
adamírcz: Damn, didnt expect to trigger such impressive rant, but there is nothing I disagree with there :rofl:
30 Jan 2025, 19:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: Errr, browser error. Come on, aren't you happy the game finally got a kill counter? I mean it's fantastic for viewing how many inf you mowed down charging MGs frontally :rofl:
30 Jan 2025, 19:05 PM
Lady Xenarra: @Rosbone
30 Jan 2025, 19:04 PM
Rosbone: *trip on
30 Jan 2025, 18:13 PM
Rosbone: Damn it, you got me talking about Relic again. I had almost completely forgotten about Coh3, like most everyone else. You can only watch waterheads tri n the sidewalk so many times before its just sad.
30 Jan 2025, 18:13 PM
Rosbone: They offer no help to the underling because they dont know shit, they just annoy them until they quit and go somewhere else. There it is, the business in a nutshell.
30 Jan 2025, 18:08 PM
Rosbone: Like most companies, if someone is good at their job they dont get promoted. So only the dumb rise to management roles. These people are usually what I call list makers. All they understand is "I have a task on my list that needs done, did you do it?".
30 Jan 2025, 18:06 PM
Rosbone: It is extremely sad that some moron like me could go there and out work everyone there in multiple roles.
30 Jan 2025, 18:05 PM
Rosbone: So now it has multiple points of failure and relies on asynchronous internet calls. Just the dumbest of the dumb work at Relic. It is clear, they have no concept of what is good or bad.
30 Jan 2025, 18:02 PM
Rosbone: The old file had player name, position, rank, RelicID, SteamID. Coh3 should have included these and player color. Now it just has player name and IDs. You have to go search for the rest of the data from a Relic server.
30 Jan 2025, 18:01 PM
Rosbone: In typical Relic fashion, they did something truly great and then f*cked it beyond repair in a fit of retardation. I have not looked deep in Coh3s files but I would imagine it is still broken. They should have expanded the local info, but its Relic so....
30 Jan 2025, 17:58 PM
Rosbone: @adamírcz Not sure which CELO you are using, but all CELOs pull information from a Relic server. This is because Relic is retarded. All the data neded used to be in a local file, then Relic broke it.
30 Jan 2025, 17:56 PM

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