Design Improvement 1: Ostheer HQ Tier2

The current Ostheer faction unit deployment:
HQ: 2 units
T1 building: 3 units
T2 building: 4 units
T3 building: 3 units
T4 building: 3 units

You will notice that there are 4 units in T2 building while there are only 2 units in HQ.
Ostheer cannot skip T2 building for that very same reason.
So my proposal is simply: move one unit from T2 building to HQ.

There are current 4 choices I could think of:

Move ATGun to HQ and require Battle Phase 1 to access.
Move Armored Car to HQ, but require tier2 building to upgrade autocannon.
Move Halftrack to HQ, but require Battle Phase 1 upgrade to access and tier2 building to upgrade flamer.
Fixed
Move Panzergrenadier to HQ, but require tier2 building to throw bundle grenade.

Which one do you think best solution?

This is a proposal with implications far too complex for me to hope to chip in very helpfully, but...

Wouldn't making the 251 require Battle Phase 2 be pretty a hefty nerf to its timing? BP2's a good bit more expensive than the T2 building and probably make the 251 arrive at the same time as the currently-justifiably later and tougher Soviet M5 HT. If this is not your intention, I would say to make the 251 require either T2 or BP2.

This is a proposal with implications far too complex for me to hope to chip in very helpfully, but...

Wouldn't making the 251 require Battle Phase 2 be pretty a hefty nerf to its timing? BP2's a good bit more expensive than the T2 building and probably make the 251 arrive at the same time as the currently-justifiably later and tougher Soviet M5 HT. If this is not your intention, I would say to make the 251 require either T2 or BP2.

221 scoutcar to T0, 5 fuel cost, give more utility somehow. 75 muni autocannon upgrade at BP1, buff autocannon effectiveness.

There's no point moving units around if you still need to upgrade just to train them. It might make things worse because you can then train Panzergrenadiers/ 222 at the same time you bring out halftrack or AT Gun, etc.

The closest I would support is 221 (that is, bring back upgraded scout car). You can either hope to score easy win by spamming them early game but no fuel to tech up, blitz to T2 for 222 and hope the one or two of them you built first will last, or play as normal, and not build them until 2cm can be acquired.

Personally though I think it is fine, or at least not bad enough to warrant another switcharoo.

This is the most funny poll result I've ever seen on this site

Move 251 to T0, flamer upgrade requires the T2 it previously came from, but allow it to be built IMMEDIATELY.
Why? It's trash, never used, ez 2 kill, but flamer early would be IMBA. It would be like a slower, non-capping, reinforcing Kubelwagen, with heftier fuel cost, maybe vet1 medical supplies would be actually used once in a while, and I can finally have the mechanized infantry I roleplay against AI with be viable.

221 scoutcar to T0, 5 fuel cost, give more utility somehow. 75 muni autocannon upgrade at BP1, buff autocannon effectiveness.

75 munitions for autocannon upgrade?

As far as I'm concerned scout cars and halftracks would benefit from a hulldown type ability. It'd help them synergize with infantry, who might actually be able to use them for cover for once.

This is a proposal with implications far too complex for me to hope to chip in very helpfully, but...

Wouldn't making the 251 require Battle Phase 2 be pretty a hefty nerf to its timing? BP2's a good bit more expensive than the T2 building and probably make the 251 arrive at the same time as the currently-justifiably later and tougher Soviet M5 HT. If this is not your intention, I would say to make the 251 require either T2 or BP2.

I agree with you, too. I will update first post. Not sure I can do anything with the poll, though.

There's no point moving units around if you still need to upgrade just to train them. It might make things worse because you can then train Panzergrenadiers/ 222 at the same time you bring out halftrack or AT Gun, etc.

The closest I would support is 221 (that is, bring back upgraded scout car). You can either hope to score easy win by spamming them early game but no fuel to tech up, blitz to T2 for 222 and hope the one or two of them you built first will last, or play as normal, and not build them until 2cm can be acquired.

Personally though I think it is fine, or at least not bad enough to warrant another switcharoo.

Moving unit to HQ allow Ostheer to SKIP tier. Something that Ostheer really need if it want to remain interesting.

The 221 was good thing in CoH. Too bad Relic didn't know how to fix it and then just turned it into 222.

Swap PaK and Sniper imo.

Uh, Panzergrenadiers in t0? Did I read that right?

To be honest, Pak in T0 for 320 MP. Just, no requirements. Wehr are helpless vs Stuart and T70, and to a lesser degree, AEC. That would make Wehrmact less handicapped.

Moving unit to HQ allow Ostheer to SKIP tier. Something that Ostheer really need if it want to remain interesting.

I think my point still stands; if you move any unit and implement some "must tech up first" to use them/ use them effectively, then the moving is pointless becuase you'd still be forced to build it anyways.

You can't really truly skip tiers as Ostheer, since you need researching Battle Phases to skip over, and the units the tier provides is useful enough to not pass over.

I also personally don't like the idea of skipping tiers, given that Relic's sorta-woulda-coulda-shoulda about it. You could skip tier as OKW which presumably was kept to keep it a faction flavour, but that's because OKW is OKW; and then they took out ability to skip T3 as Soviets. That leaves USF.

Why do you want to have Ostheer able to skip T2 anwyways? I don't think Ostheer is currently uninteresting to the point that Relic needs to poke a stick in the dungheap. I'td be madness to skip T2 at all, and removing one unit won't make it much less mad.
If they want to make Ostheer interesting, I say make new commanders...or at least fix some of the lame ones. I strongly encourage the latter before doing the former, since it is easier.

Idk, I'd move the Grenadiers to the HQ and replace them with either Panzergrenadiers or the Armored car in T1 but balance them accordingly, especially the Armored car.

I think my point still stands; if you move any unit and implement some "must tech up first" to use them/ use them effectively, then the moving is pointless becuase you'd still be forced to build it anyways.

You can't really truly skip tiers as Ostheer, since you need researching Battle Phases to skip over, and the units the tier provides is useful enough to not pass over.

I also personally don't like the idea of skipping tiers, given that Relic's sorta-woulda-coulda-shoulda about it. You could skip tier as OKW which presumably was kept to keep it a faction flavour, but that's because OKW is OKW; and then they took out ability to skip T3 as Soviets. That leaves USF.

Why do you want to have Ostheer able to skip T2 anwyways? I don't think Ostheer is currently uninteresting to the point that Relic needs to poke a stick in the dungheap. I'td be madness to skip T2 at all, and removing one unit won't make it much less mad.
If they want to make Ostheer interesting, I say make new commanders...or at least fix some of the lame ones. I strongly encourage the latter before doing the former, since it is easier.

I'm not fan of reading long text, so could please discuss one thing at a time?

About why I want Ostheer to skip tier2, I feel that splitting the battle phase upgrade and building is extremely redundant. I want to improve so Ostheer player has a choice.

Ostheer was able to skip tier, in the past, when tank come much faster. Nowadays, I almost didn't see any ostheer player risk to skip tier 2, and if they do, they ripe disaster. Very few success so far.

Idk, I'd move the Grenadiers to the HQ and replace them with either Panzergrenadiers or the Armored car in T1 but balance them accordingly, especially the Armored car.

This is also a good idea. But that would make mg and grenadier stuck in one building, which slow down first deployment.

There was a time when ostheer mg was in T1 building. Relic move them to HQ, which allow skip tier 1, along with Ostruppen and Assault Grenadier .

I'm not fan of reading long text, so could please discuss one thing at a time?

About why I want Ostheer to skip tier2, I feel that splitting the battle phase upgrade and building is extremely redundant. I want to improve so Ostheer player has a choice.

Ostheer was able to skip tier, in the past, when tank come much faster. Nowadays, I almost didn't see any ostheer player risk to skip tier 2, and if they do, they ripe disaster. Very few success so far.

It sounds like you don't so much like to skip tiers but rather take out the additional micro in researching battle phases. Which I would approve, Relic can always just carry over the manpower and fuel costs onto the tier buildings to compensate. Soviets pretty much have this setup: T3 is a whopping 120 fuel (and takes forever to build), and the fact you need to build it before going on to T4 pretty much makes this the same result compared with Ostheer, which just splits resource and time between battle phases and construction.

As for Ostheer skipping tiers for going tanks, I believe the entire point of the changes by Relic was precisely to prevent that, they've always being trying to make pre-tank fighting to last longer.

I'm not fan of reading long text, so could please discuss one thing at a time?

About why I want Ostheer to skip tier2, I feel that splitting the battle phase upgrade and building is extremely redundant. I want to improve so Ostheer player has a choice.

Ostheer was able to skip tier, in the past, when tank come much faster. Nowadays, I almost didn't see any ostheer player risk to skip tier 2, and if they do, they ripe disaster. Very few success so far.




This is also a good idea. But that would make mg and grenadier stuck in one building, which slow down first deployment.

There was a time when ostheer mg was in T1 building. Relic move them to HQ, which allow skip tier 1, along with Ostruppen and Assault Grenadier .

You do have a point but it would also mean a delay to the Gren/MG combo wiping the floor with the Brits early game, giving them a bit more time to breathe, people mostly roll with Osttruppen or Assault Grenadiers against Brits anyways so... Plus it would even out the number of units in each building, and that's great for perfectionist nutjobs like me who want everything to be equal, or nice and square in terms of positioning.

5 man grenadier squad unlockable after purchasing nebelwerfer pls

T2 is fine ,just

Add Kettenkrad for T1
Add Nebelwerfer for T3
Add Jagdpanther for T4