OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions

You don't see the problem with your "obvious solutions"?

You're not supposed to have all the answers to your problems on a single building. If you want to be able to fight early vehicles better, you go for the mech building in lieu of having a retreat point closer to the area of operations for better map presence and more aggressive infantry play.

Or do you think other players have it all ready in a single building? You have to be able to feel and predict what your enemies are going to be relying on earlygame.

the light vehicle meta is inescapable by this point. Every factions are basically expected to be fielding a light vehicle by about the 6:00 mark. Forcing the OKW to get healing or to get their light vehicle will have pretty devastating consequences.

it's also a more relevant topic for 1v1. Any well coordinated Axis team is going to split their tech. One okw go medical truck and one okw go mech truck, or just have an ost plater build a medical bunker.

In addition, a flak ht buff instead of a raketen/schreck buff means that the OKW will be forced to spend fuel, instead of relying on manpower/munition purchase.

the light vehicle meta is inescapable by this point. Every factions are basically expected to be fielding a light vehicle by about the 6:00 mark. Forcing the OKW to get healing or to get their light vehicle will have pretty devastating consequences.

it's also a more relevant topic for 1v1. Any well coordinated Axis team is going to split their tech. One okw go medical truck and one okw go mech truck, or just have an ost plater build a medical bunker.

In addition, a flak ht buff instead of a raketen/schreck buff means that the OKW will be forced to spend fuel, instead of relying on manpower/munition purchase.

Are we talking about a faction having in the balance mod: T0 shreck + t0 Pfaust + t0 raken + T2 Puma + T2 jagpanzer + T3 Panther + ultimately King Tiger? And you are complaining because that faction have to make a choice between heal or early light vehicle? Not mentioning sturmpio still have medic crates and basic infantry passive healing vet3 (or vet4).

Sometime, it is good to think the faction has a whole, on not only every single unit in a vacuum. Because at this stage I'll ask the M15 to be equiped with tulip rockets because you know it doesn't cut it when come medium tanks.

Are we talking about a faction having in the balance mod: T0 shreck + t0 Pfaust + t0 raken + T2 Puma + T2 jagpanzer + T3 Panther + ultimately King Tiger? And you are complaining because that faction have to make a choice between heal or early light vehicle? Not mentioning sturmpio still have medic crates and basic infantry passive healing vet3 (or vet4).

Sometime, it is good to think the faction has a whole, on not only every single unit in a vacuum. Because at this stage I'll ask the M15 to be equiped with tulip rockets because you know it doesn't cut it when come medium tanks.

giving the schreck to the storm was a mistake, and I don't think the OKW needed the mg34 as a common unit either. The flak HT should have been buffed instead.

The OKW is stuck in between meta. I don't think the current sturm schreck + raketen is enough, but buffing any further is going to cause problem.

If Flak ht was buffed in exchange for the schreck and mg34, then okw early game would be categorized as an infantry+ light vehicle faction with weak support weapon. Okw would have good infantry with a strong mechanized and armor element, but weak on the defensive due to poor support weapon option.

1. noob. Your thoughts are irrelevant. OKW has a cheapest unit unlock and free area lock feature at the same time. And this isnt enough for you to win.
2. Game is garbage. It needs high level tournaments. Results of which would be an indicator of things. Now everything is broken because of OKW first of all.

3.Best bet is to mirror as much as possible cuz they jus cant make a assymetrical game ballanced. Price of OKW teching +60% for balanced game.

how about we give them ostruppen as only unit and make it cost 1000 mp and I they start with no unit for asymmetrical balance (and we give ally the panther and mouse + KT free at tier 3 unlock )

giving the schreck to the storm was a mistake, and I don't think the OKW needed the mg34 as a common unit either. The flak HT should have been buffed instead.

The OKW is stuck in between meta. I don't think the current sturm schreck + raketen is enough, but buffing any further is going to cause problem.

If Flak ht was buffed in exchange for the schreck and mg34, then okw early game would be categorized as an infantry+ light vehicle faction with weak support weapon. Okw would have good infantry with a strong mechanized and armor element, but weak on the defensive due to poor support weapon option.

I'd like too, but we are talking about the balance mode, not our personal wishful mode.
In the current state of the balance mode, OKW has far than enough to deal with any type of situation if going unilaterally T1. HMG/Flak truck anti infantry + shreck/pfaust/Raken.
What you are asking for is a unit dealing AI/suppression + AT vs light tank for a super cheap price, all of this with shreck/pfaust/raken on the field at the same time.

What Firesparks is asking for here is:

1) Give the AAHT a purpose.

Would you ever pay 270 manpower (and that 50-odd fuel) for a fragile vehicle, when you also have access to the cheapest MG in the game? This is, especially given the AAHT's track record for being buggy:
- Trees/etc clipping shots
- Being completely useless vs garrisons

2) Give the Med Truck a purpose as a tech-tier building (i.e., not just the access-to-retreat-and-medics building).

The T2 building gives you access to 3 powerful vehicles. Realistically you won't build more than 2 of them in a normal fight. However, T2 gives you more options to choose how to fight.

T1 gives you what? Leig-spam + IRHT?

Both problems are linked together with the fact that the AAHT becomes completely redundant, and offers very little added utility for its price.

Instead of making AAHT a deterrent against light vehicles, though, I would rather reinforce AAHT's offensive synergy, which will allow OKW to better counter MG-spam cheese without having to counter-turtle (indirect-fire spam), which is boring (choose one of the following):
1) Give it some low-cooldown smoke projectors, or something, already at Vet0, so that OKW infantry get some access to smoke.
2) Make it come out as the stock OST transport halftrack, with the ability to transform into an AAHT. The HT doesn't asbolutely need to have the reinforce option; just the transport option should be enough.
3) Give the AAHT the ability to clear garrisons relatively fast. That way, if the enemy is camping garrisons, OKW can spearhead with the AAHT, and then move in with infantry.

The reason I wouldn't want to reinforce the defensive capabilities of the AAHT too much (i.e., light-vehicle deterrent), is that doing so might reward OKW campy playing a bit too much:
- Free FlakHQ lockdown is still there
- OKW already has Leigs which are too powerful on the right maps when spammed
- IRHT is there
- .. and on top of that we have the cheapest MG in the game, that can also retreat to a FRP
- That's just too much potential for turtling.

Yes, everybody is still butthurt about Volksblobs. However, no faction deserves to have dead units and dead tiers in their stock. Especially given that this is supposed to be the jesus-patch that gives purpose to all those forgotten units/tiers.

I'd like too, but we are talking about the balance mode, not our personal wishful mode.
In the current state of the balance mode, OKW has far than enough to deal with any type of situation if going unilaterally T1. HMG/Flak truck anti infantry + shreck/pfaust/Raken.
What you are asking for is a unit dealing AI/suppression + AT vs light tank for a super cheap price, all of this with shreck/pfaust/raken on the field at the same time.

the balance mod is basically relic trying mirage's mod and see what works. I don't see any inherit reason why changes couldn't be made (other than it being a bit late)

What Firesparks is asking for here is:

1) Give the AAHT a purpose.

Would you ever pay 270 manpower (and that 50-odd fuel) for a fragile vehicle, when you also have access to the cheapest MG in the game? This is, especially given the AAHT's track record for being buggy:
- Trees/etc clipping shots
- Being completely useless vs garrisons

Why Ostheer has HMG42 and Ostwind? They reasonably do the same thing by denying infantry access. Why USF has M15 and .50 in the same tier? Why Sov has T70 and M5 in the same tier?
This is a non argument, AAHT has a purpose, mobile anti infantry platform, dealing with Airforce if necessary. It requires micro to not have it like a unit you send in the middle of your enemy frontline brainless. It allows different playstyle and I can tell you it works if you micro it correctly, this unit is a pain in the ass to counter in good hands before medium hit the field and this is perfectly nice and fine.
The price question is also irrelevant. the price is there to not let you have it too early even before your enemy can have a soft counter available. Remember why a Wc51 is so expensive in fuel? Remember why a M20 cost 350 mp?

2) Give the Med Truck a purpose as a tech-tier building (i.e., not just the access-to-retreat-and-medics building).

Retreat and medic + HMG34 + ISG + maphack + upgrade pack isn't a good purpose? You can skip it for the heal if you are good enough to vet your sturmpio and use medic crates. It gives you a huge field presence bonus, the moment it is build up, no faction has the capability to destroy it. And on top of that you want more soft AI and AT power? unlike other factions, it doesn't deny you access to AT or support units (USF and Sov)

The T2 building gives you access to 3 powerful vehicles. Realistically you won't build more than 2 of them in a normal fight. However, T2 gives you more options to choose how to fight.

So less map presence, no free heal but powerful light and medium unit giving you a lot of mobility, to me it sounds like a good compromise. which other faction has a so early access to rocket arty? which other faction has access to a dedicated tank destroyer from T2 and potentially first building made? None.

And for the rest, honestly do you need a better building clearance than super fast flamnade ensuring to kill at least 1 model per hit and then dot. OKW already has the best/cheaper/most available building clearance capability in the game, available on any volks squad.

Let Relic corrects the bugs around the flaktruck and the unit would be perfectly balance.

I'd like too, but we are talking about the balance mode, not our personal wishful mode miragefla's wishful mode.
In the current state of the balance mode, OKW has far than enough to deal with any type of situation if going unilaterally T1. HMG/Flak truck anti infantry + shreck/pfaust/Raken.
What you are asking for is a unit dealing AI/suppression + AT vs light tank for a super cheap price, all of this with shreck/pfaust/raken on the field at the same time.

/fixed

This thread gave me so much fun, especially the first page or two.
Schreck on SP.
PzFasut on Volks.
Mines.
T0 Raketen.
Still whine about lack of AT option.

#VolksBlobMind

So much AT on infantry XDDD.

Wouldn't it be better to put maybe a disabling rocket skill on the raketen and remove the faust from volks?

Would be more interesting flavor-wise.

Stop discussing about dead game balance already. Do you really think that something from this thread will be added in a game? - No.

Stop playing this game is best thing that you can do.

Why Ostheer has HMG42 and Ostwind? They reasonably do the same thing by denying infantry access. Why USF has M15 and .50 in the same tier? Why Sov has T70 and M5 in the same tier?

To answer your question:
- HMG42 is a suppression platform, and a light-vehicle hard-counter at Vet1.
- Ostwind is an infantry/AT-gun murder machine

There is literally no role overlap between the two. Ostwind also comes much later

- 50cal is, literally, the worst MG in the game (even without taking its price/tech-branching into account). This is only rivalled by the Vickers.
- the USF AAHT is an offensive platform that deals suppression on the move, like Soviet M5

The reason why I would ever choose a 50cal over AAHT is if I don't have fuel for the latter. You get what you paid for.

If the FlakHT behaved exactly like the USF AAHT (suppression on the move, etc), we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Currently:
- MG34 is a middle-tier MG (definitely worse than the MG42. Not sure vs Maxim, after the nerfs. Definitely better than 50cal and Vickers). If you also factor MP-cost/popcap, it's definitely the most cost-efficient MG in the game. Since it's an MG, it's static in nature
- FlakHT is also static in nature. The catch is, that if it is ever caught out of position, it's dead.
- OKW gets AA defenses for free, and with no popcap attached.

I can literally see little reason why anybody would ever field a FlakHT, when they have access to MG34.

Retreat and medic + HMG34 + ISG + maphack + upgrade pack isn't a good purpose? You can skip it for the heal if you are good enough to vet your sturmpio and use medic crates. It gives you a huge field presence bonus, the moment it is build up, no faction has the capability to destroy it. And on top of that you want more soft AI and AT power? unlike other factions, it doesn't deny you access to AT or support units (USF and Sov)

Yes, part of the problem stems from the fact that OKW gets access to their entire range of support weapons, regardless of their teching choice.

You might be also be thinking that since the Medic truck gives such an insane field presence advantage to OKW, it is fair that they get some disadvantages out of that too. However, think about it:
- If you defang a faction from its offensive capabilities, they are going to turtle.
- See Brits.

Now, consider the sum of changes to OKW:
- Stock Fausts, stock MG34, better AT gun.
- Combine these with the maphax truck and long-range auto-fire artillery, and you have the recipe for campiness to the extreme
- The FlakHT is undesirable here, since it delays the time until FlakHQ lockdown.

I posit that if the opponent picks a Med Truck opening and is capable, you are going to wish you were facing Brit Sim City, instead. The Med-Truck -must- get some offensive tools, and it should also probably lose some defensive tools to prevent extreme campiness.

I can literally see little reason why anybody would ever field a FlakHT, when they have access to MG34.

Personally I love to go for 251/17.

It's not about the suppression. It's abot how deadly it can be.

When used right, it has easily achieve 20-50kills.

My personal best was 68 against double maxims spammers.

Tho it require huge micro input.

To answer your question:
- HMG42 is a suppression platform, and a light-vehicle hard-counter at Vet1.
- Ostwind is an infantry/AT-gun murder machine

There is literally no role overlap between the two. Ostwind also comes much later

FlakHT murders squads like the Ostwind, but earlier in game and being much less touchy. And the micro is pretty much the same between both units. Have to be static to deal damage with the only difference that the flakht must be static to fire but has smoke panic button. Because it comes earlier and face less hardcounter.

- 50cal is, literally, the worst MG in the game (even without taking its price/tech-branching into account). This is only rivalled by the Vickers.
- the USF AAHT is an offensive platform that deals suppression on the move, like Soviet M5

The reason why I would ever choose a 50cal over AAHT is if I don't have fuel for the latter. You get what you paid for.

If the FlakHT behaved exactly like the USF AAHT (suppression on the move, etc), we wouldn't be having this conversation.

USF AAHT doesn't suppress on the move and have far less damage output but suppress faster. it also doesn't fire 360, a 222 (210mp 15fu) in your blind spot and you are dead since it doesn't have panic smoke button. Knowing that, are you really sure the AAHT is much better?

Currently:
- MG34 is a middle-tier MG (definitely worse than the MG42. Not sure vs Maxim, after the nerfs. Definitely better than 50cal and Vickers). If you also factor MP-cost/popcap, it's definitely the most cost-efficient MG in the game. Since it's an MG, it's static in nature
- FlakHT is also static in nature. The catch is, that if it is ever caught out of position, it's dead.
- OKW gets AA defenses for free, and with no popcap attached.

I can literally see little reason why anybody would ever field a FlakHT, when they have access to MG34.

MG34 is a suppression platform, flakht deals much more damage to single entity squad, the same synergy you see between HMG42 and Ostwind applies here at a much lower level but earlier stage in the game.

Yes, part of the problem stems from the fact that OKW gets access to their entire range of support weapons, regardless of their teching choice.

You might be also be thinking that since the Medic truck gives such an insane field presence advantage to OKW, it is fair that they get some disadvantages out of that too. However, think about it:
- If you defang a faction from its offensive capabilities, they are going to turtle.
- See Brits.

Now, consider the sum of changes to OKW:
- Stock Fausts, stock MG34, better AT gun.
- Combine these with the maphax truck and long-range auto-fire artillery, and you have the recipe for campiness to the extreme
- The FlakHT is undesirable here, since it delays the time until FlakHQ lockdown.

I posit that if the opponent picks a Med Truck opening and is capable, you are going to wish you were facing Brit Sim City, instead. The Med-Truck -must- get some offensive tools, and it should also probably lose some defensive tools to prevent extreme campiness.

Maybe it is a flaw in the faction design, I can definitely agree on that.

Now you also have to take some distance with the faction itself and see it through a global balance vision.
Do you think the OKW faction, which is the best early game faction (0-5 minutes) will be balance if you can set up your healing building on the map when your early advantage comes to end and directly, from it, build a cheap (you said 50 fuel is too much) anti-everything HT (you said the truck could have some more dps)?
I mean, we are in the balance section, I know the word is odd for many people who are only there crying for some buff to their beloved faction, but still, you have to think of it before making such changes.

Personally I love to go for 251/17.

It's not about the suppression. It's abot how deadly it can be.

When used right, it has easily achieve 20-50kills.

My personal best was 68 against double maxims spammers.

Tho it require huge micro input.

Could you maybe post a replay? Ive been wanting to use this unit for awhile but I never seem to get it to work right when I build it.

Im not quite sure this unit needs much changing I really just think it needs a price reduction (and the 222 needs a price increase).

Could you maybe post a replay? Ive been wanting to use this unit for awhile but I never seem to get it to work right when I build it.

Im not quite sure this unit needs much changing I really just think it needs a price reduction (and the 222 needs a price increase).

Currently Im not playing that much.

But if I will play as OKW I will try to do something with 251/17.

Just place it behind shot blockers, around the corner - that's all you need.

Maybe it is a flaw in the faction design, I can definitely agree on that.

Now you also have to take some distance with the faction itself and see it through a global balance vision.
Do you think the OKW faction, which is the best early game faction (0-5 minutes) will be balance if you can set up your healing building on the map when your early advantage comes to end and directly, from it, build a cheap (you said 50 fuel is too much) anti-everything HT (you said the truck could have some more dps)?
I mean, we are in the balance section, I know the word is odd for many people who are only there crying for some buff to their beloved faction, but still, you have to think of it before making such changes.

I see where the misunderstanding stems from.

I am definitely NOT in favour of buffing the anti-vehicle capabilities of AAHT. This is because it will synergise with MedHQ turtling too much.

Instead, what I proposed are some utility buffs that will allow the FlakHT to support infantry better on offensive pushes (e.g., smoke, transport, etc).

Why Ostheer has HMG42 and Ostwind? They reasonably do the same thing by denying infantry access. Why USF has M15 and .50 in the same tier? Why Sov has T70 and M5 in the same tier?
This is a non argument, AAHT has a purpose, mobile anti infantry platform, dealing with Airforce if necessary. It requires micro to not have it like a unit you send in the middle of your enemy frontline brainless. It allows different playstyle and I can tell you it works if you micro it correctly, this unit is a pain in the ass to counter in good hands before medium hit the field and this is perfectly nice and fine.
The price question is also irrelevant. the price is there to not let you have it too early even before your enemy can have a soft counter available. Remember why a Wc51 is so expensive in fuel? Remember why a M20 cost 350 mp?


Retreat and medic + HMG34 + ISG + maphack + upgrade pack isn't a good purpose? You can skip it for the heal if you are good enough to vet your sturmpio and use medic crates. It gives you a huge field presence bonus, the moment it is build up, no faction has the capability to destroy it. And on top of that you want more soft AI and AT power? unlike other factions, it doesn't deny you access to AT or support units (USF and Sov)


So less map presence, no free heal but powerful light and medium unit giving you a lot of mobility, to me it sounds like a good compromise. which other faction has a so early access to rocket arty? which other faction has access to a dedicated tank destroyer from T2 and potentially first building made? None.

And for the rest, honestly do you need a better building clearance than super fast flamnade ensuring to kill at least 1 model per hit and then dot. OKW already has the best/cheaper/most available building clearance capability in the game, available on any volks squad.

Let Relic corrects the bugs around the flaktruck and the unit would be perfectly balance.

1) OKW AAHT's uselessness isn't even about redundancy, it's the fact it's a piss poor unit. Removing mg34 from the common tree also bypass the issue of it being redundant with the mg42 call in in the fallshirmjager doctrine. I personally prefer to buff weak unit instead of complicating the situation with new units.

2) I don't think the medical truck have the tool to face the light vehicle meta in 1v1. The current Raketen + schreck isn't really enough to face stuart or t70. If it was a choice between buffing the raketen/schreck or buffing the AAHT I would buff the unit that would require the okw to spend fuel.

One thing I don't understand from this balance preview. Why did Relic even bother adding MG-34? This MG is garbage and OKW would've been better off with MG-42. Now, I am curious what Relic would do with the OKW commanders that call in MG-34s.