SU-85; The Thread

The SU-85 needs to be toned, but in such a way that overall Soviet AT is still up to par of killing power. I'd advise any Osteer only players who feel the SU-85 is overpowered to play Soviet games with no T4, enjoy your AT options.

While I agree in part, I've been doing this consistently already. SU-85 makes everything easier, but it is not the end-all-be-all.

AT grenads do nominal damage, please try killing a P4 with just AT nades and see how it works. button does no damage to tanks. ZiS-3 has to be stationary and only works in a difensive manner but it is a viable AT option. Ram also nullifies the the T34 and with only a 20 fuel difrence you will not have more 34s than P4s for more than a min.

The t34 85 is over 200 fuel investment making it a "im already winning" button and is doctrinal, the penertration on the 85 is actually lower than the P4 i bleive which throws your argument out the window, the Su-76 has a really bad gun for taking out armour at medium tank status or higher and it made out of paper.

At means anti TANK so light vehicles do not count and with that the t70, ISU 152 and IS2 are inthe same boat as elephant, bombing runs have a CD and hte howitzer comes too late AND it too inacrutate to be relied upon.


Soviet Anti Tank options are ZIS3 and SU85 everything else are support units for them.

T-34/85 tanks penetrate the front armor of a Panther reliably while costing less, per tank.

Where in my post did I state that you could only use one ability/type of AT per tank? Obviously I was trying to show that the Soviets have a lot of options at AT, and if used together, they could handle any German armor on the field, without the use of the SU-85. It's not that hard to button a P4, hit it with an AT grenade, and finish it off with the ZiS. But, I guess that's too much work for the soviet players that have become too lazy/spoiled by the one-unit-to-counter-all-armor SU-85.

If you are incompetent in dealing with the SU-85, then you are doing it wrong. I've never had problem vs SU-85 because i lay teller mines and most soviet players don't get minesweepers. 1 teller already makes the SU-85 a worthless junk that you can just flank easly. But in a scenario when you are facing 2+ SU-85, you need heavy tanks with paks and some sort of anti infantry units to keep the paks alive. Or a pak43 which is a true soviet can-opener.

Sometimes the soviet player loses patience, so he rushes in and if you predict such push, you can take the advantage and easly take out most of his SU-85's if not all.

Most of the time, when i manage to kill the first SU-85 quickly, i have a window of opportunity to end the game before another one comes out. Even if another one comes out, i've already made my counter stronger.

Also: good micro > all.

I just wanted to highlight this in the hope that more people read it

I been playing tons of russians and have stayed away from the cheap cheesy su85 strat and gone support kompanyna and t34 and it has worked beautifully. So I dont know why russians cry about not having good at options besides the su85.

Once the p4 comes just at nade them... button them with guards and use zis.. it isnt hard, the russ army is a great combined arms army. It just takes some skill to use but u can really keep a german player at bay with it.

If your early game consists of conscripts rocking out with their cocks out, dancing around the enemy's fuel point, then t2/t3 is very viable. However, this can't always be managed.

I just wanted to highlight this in the hope that more people read it

Read what? All I read is that in order to beat SU-85s your opponent has to be fucking retarded and not predict a well known response and not buy mine sweepers.

If you are incompetent in dealing with the SU-85, then you are doing it wrong. I've never had problem vs SU-85 because i lay teller mines and most soviet players don't get minesweepers. 1 teller already makes the SU-85 a worthless junk that you can just flank easly. But in a scenario when you are facing 2+ SU-85, you need heavy tanks with paks and some sort of anti infantry units to keep the paks alive. Or a pak43 which is a true soviet can-opener.

Sometimes the soviet player loses patience, so he rushes in and if you predict such push, you can take the advantage and easly take out most of his SU-85's if not all.

Most of the time, when i manage to kill the first SU-85 quickly, i have a window of opportunity to end the game before another one comes out. Even if another one comes out, i've already made my counter stronger.

Also: good micro > all.

key takeaways being spam mines (a soft counter) and hope the soviet player is dumb enough to overextend his units and lose them unsupported. Thats great advice for killing ANY vehicle in the game

Pak43 is doctrinal and frankly I'm not a fan choosing a doctrine I dont like simply because my gameplay is being dictated by the THREAT of a non-doctrinal soviet unit (that can probably run circles with his other troops around a stationary gun)

"if you face 2+ su85s you need heavy tanks and paks..."
right im going to buy an elefant, thank you for the honest admmission

PAK 43s are incredibly situational, as well as doctrinal. A mortar or sniper can decrew them very easily, they're even more vulnerable to flanks than normal AT guns, and did I mention that a doctrinal unit can't possibly be the only true counter to a non-doctrinal one?

I agree courier, it bad design if you MUST get a certain doctrinal unit to compete, guards and hte PAK43 seem to fall into this

The SU-85 needs to be toned, but in such a way that overall Soviet AT is still up to par of killing power. I'd advise any Osteer only players who feel the SU-85 is overpowered to play Soviet games with no T4, enjoy your AT options.

When I play russian I also just go for su85, its 100% of the time the safest best option. Dont think it should be this way.

Exactly!

I feel both factions should have more than one obvious best unit to turn to.

(By the way, I said that before the p4 got nerfed.)

Then we indeed feel the same (t4 stood for tier 4 building with SU-85 . Btw, I've checked my replays and found our game. It was 500 to 0 on moscow outskirts. No su's were involved Too bad u cant watch the replay having a newer version of the game installed. :/

And you all can applaud me, cuz i haven't built a single t-4 building for at least like 30 games in a row. From time to time it can be tough and even frustrating, but i do manage to win like 70% of these game by taking early advantage.

Btw, i clearly remember a wonderful play that became a turning point for me. I was totally dominating the early game having taken both fuel points and most of the map. Feeling pretty confident i went for early su's and built like 2 or 3 of them waiting for their panzers. The funny thing was they never actually came. He was using mostly infantry and anti-tank guns and had totaly outplayed me. That proves alternative strategies do exist and in fact can be extremely effective.

Make the Cone work only when immobile and drop speed by about 0.4.

This would result in a unit with behavior more consistent of a TD.

It also absolutely needs to stop sniping PaKs.

just played a game .... SU85 2 shotted my full health vet 2 mortar team and them promptly sniped my shrek squad forcing them down to 2 members.

It then proceeded to snipe my PAK which managed to fire off 1 whole shot. Forced him to retreat with another PAK ... and he simple used a incendiary barrage to decrew it. Managed to get a PAK43 and guess what ..... he simply retreated and his team - mate called an il2 bomb strike to obliterate my 400+ mp pak43 in 1 run.

My poor ostwind and flame HT were heading back to base permanently after that. Got more shrek squads and the KV8 monster from hell appears.

Panter ? Yup buttoned him up and I just managed to pop smoke and retreat. There is nothing you can do as Germans once they got this cheater combo of SU + KV

"tank destroyer" my ASS ... more like exploit 85

It really is mainly theoretical but overall I think that all those tanks being too close in cost is the real problem. Ultimately, this leads to only the strongest two being built, which in turn creates a stale meta and allows the stronger of the two to completely abuse its strengths.
But I'm sure the devs will already know how to best solve many of the problems once they come to the late game tanks after balancing from early game up.

I think if they'd increase the Su85 price a little (and slightly decrease fuel cost on Stug plus slight drop of T-34 fuel cost plus some other cost changes), we might see some interesting tug of war play based on the (shock) momentum generated by getting a tank on the field.
So for example it might end up like this, assuming both have around the same amount of fuel:
Ost would get a Pz4 and push back the infantry but after a minute or two the Su-85 hits the field, meaning that the Ost player needs to be very careful and on the defensive. Then again a Stug comes in, so now the Soviet player needs to be careful and on the defensive. Then 2 minutes later the second Su85 spawns, allowing the Soviet player to be more offensive again, soon followed by a second Pz4 or Stug etc.

I still think focused sight and it sniping inf/AT guns is stupid, though

I dont think its a cost issue. Its a stat issue.

I dont think its a cost issue. Its a stat issue.

Exactly ! bumping the cost by say 20 fuel will solve nothing ... it only means they have to wait an extra 30 secs to spam one.

Lets hope Relic fixes this severely imbalanced unit in the next patch as they plan to buff the T34.

Cost and stats are closely linked as a too cheap cost can make a otherwise fine unit overpowered. Of course too high stats can make an adequately priced unit OP, too... so really not sure which is which.
It was mainly a thought experiment. I'd really like to see how a tug of war between tank numbers (granting each stage their own few minutes of superiority) would play out. It has the potential to snowball, though and many people also dislike the gameplay created by early vehicle shock units in the early game (I do so partially, too) so many people might not enjoy it.

If we're leaving cost changes out, its stats really are too high in a few areas like (but not limited to) speed and sight (focused sight is stupid).

I'd like to see an up-gun on the T34/76 making it a T34/86 at least close to even vs a p4. Maybe removing the ram with the up-gun too. This will give you the option to at least just have one fielded. Saving up for 2 these is ridiculous, is Doctrinal, and comes too late anyway to counter T3 effectively.

This would make teching to T3 as Soviet at least useful, and spending munis on a tank, will mean less cheesy mines all over the map. Compare it to the Sherman in vcoh.

Also either make the su-85 purchase increased vision, or gain it at vet 1. =P

This would open up the playing field for the Stug as it counters everything to Soviet T3.

game after game SU85's dominate, especially in 2v2. they are too damn cheap by at least 40 fuel for what they do. we starved them of fuel and they still pumped out su85's in the long run. so damn frustrating. the 120mm mortar is also a crazy good compliment to the su85, a few of those and good luck capping a point.

Pretty sure somewhere I've got a video of two SU-85's point blank shooting at one idle sniper and missing 8 times. How about just no to all of this.

I've got a better idea, just remove all tanks and infantry from Soviet and change the Army name to Poland so it'll just be Ostheer vs Civilians. Sounds like a fun game.

Well said. the SU-85 already has it's disadvantages, turret cannot turn, rotation rate is slow as molasses, yea we have reverse so what. you guys have turrets that move not to mention blitz/ speed + smoke, zooming around at unreal speeds. /SU Thread 19909009902993095778237849872937849879238479872938749827397849273784 and counting