SU-85; The Thread

It's a pity there is still no official response from RELIC about this su85 issues while they acknowledge the other stuff Russians make continous whines about.

I am pretty sure they know we are being vocal about it. They've noticed even the smallest of feedback, but maybe they need the SU-85 to stay that wya. It is the soviet endgame tank, after all.

I am pretty sure they know we are being vocal about it. They've noticed even the smallest of feedback, but maybe they need the SU-85 to stay that wya. It is the soviet endgame tank, after all.

Kind of funny that the soviet "end game" armor comes out at the same time as Axis "mid game" units. Let's not forget that the SU-85 is non-doctrinal and shouldn't be able to wipe the floor with almost anything it enconters with minimal support.

I am pretty sure they know we are being vocal about it. They've noticed even the smallest of feedback, but maybe they need the SU-85 to stay that wya. It is the soviet endgame tank, after all.

"endgame" ? The fact that the building which gets you the SU85 doesnt require any Tiers whatsoever and Soviets can get it around the 10 minute mark is hardly "endgame". If you hold fuel you can spam at least 5 SU85's before most games are over.

Maybe if they want it to be endgame, keep it as is, change its name to the SU-100(It is more like the SU-100 currently in anycase) and just increase its cost to ~155 fuel, so it isn't as spammable.

Alternatively make the stug's range and los the same as the su85.

I also like the solution to make it so it needs to "deploy" when using the cone los ability.

I also like the solution to make it so it needs to "deploy" when using the cone los ability.

This. Or a muni cost.

I love this Tank!

You might be right, I just, just wish the stug would be more viable. I am tired of always building p4 if i want to win. I like the p4 but i want to be able to build stugs on maps where i want to be more defensive. I agree that it probably needs a better buff than just a target size decrease, but i am not going to comment on wether the balance actually worked or not, until i have tried it in an actual game. Stug will at least come before the SU-85, giving it some time to vet up.

I would like to know exactly what "significantly reduces damage taken" means (this is vet 2 bonus). A vet 2 stug can be quite tough actually and killing a couple of those pesky m3's will help to vet it. It's questions like this that Makes me want to cry that the stat page was taken down. We really need an elaborate coh2 wiki with all the combat stats/commanders/unit stats and costs/bulletin stats etc etc.

I just, just wish the stug (T34) would be more viable. I am tired of always building p4 (t4) if i want to win. How do u like that?

I just, just wish the stug (T34) would be more viable. I am tired of always building p4 ( i assume you meant SU85) if i want to win. How do u like that?

Exactly!

I feel both factions should have more than one obvious best unit to turn to.

(By the way, I said that before the p4 got nerfed.)

I simultaneously love and hate the way the soviet macro game is played, and I think that any attempt to balance the su85 needs to take this into account instead of merely tweaking stats.

The Good:
Different planned soviet builds are possible using call-ins and certain buildings (or none at all), as opposed to the Ostheer who will have little choice but to make the same units every game to stay competitive, and you will almost never see tier4 in a close 1v1.

The Bad:
Skipping buildings (tiers) + easy economic management for the soviets means the su85 pops out as mentioned right when a p4 does, if not before.

Su85s dont dominate german armor so much as prevent them from being worthwhile to use. As soon as a couple su85s sit behind the soviet front lines in a relatively close game, the ability to use vehicles is almost negated for the ostheer. God help you if you're trying to retake the vps on pripyat winter. It essentially takes an elefant to drive the su85s off to give yourself room to push, but if you have been building armor in a 1v1 you probably wont have 260 fuel to spare at that point.

What I'd like to see is something like this -

Step 1:
Buff t34/76s to make them viable vs panzer 4s statwise, reduce the effectiveness of ram
Nerf t70s so they arent quite the rape machine they are now; speed, armor, dps, choose 2
Discuss: Move su-76 to tier3? then require tier3 building to get to tier4

Tier 3 will take on the role of german tier 3 as the standard mid-game tier, with t-34s as the generalist tank like a panzer 4. I would be very interested to see the cost of t-70s increased as they negate ostheer t2 vehicles and don't have an effective counter other than mines (not a hard counter btw) if you bait them right... then they rebuild it. Ram spam would also have to be adjusted, possibly removing the 100% main gun damage on rammed vehicles. Requiring vet1 for ram would also be an interesting tradeoff.

Step 2:
Increase the time and cost to get to tier4 for the soviet player. Tier4 should be the exception not the rule. This tier4 bullshit at 10 minutes is fail design. Tier 3 should be the main mid-game tier for both sides because it'll be equally viable for both sides (aka buff t34s). Requiring t3 building to get to soviet t4 is a good start. T3 units for the soviet should be worth using, and their usefulness is what will delay tier4.

I think the easiest fix for the su-85 itself is to either cut the cancer and remove the spotting ability, and/or keep it and require it to deploy to fire long range. Possibly decrease rotation speed or accuracy up close since it has a casemate turret and shouldnt be able to match a tank in close combat. Discuss: possible small cost increase

Food for thought--if germans had panthers out at the same time as soviet t3, theyd be calling bullshit. If conscripts are supposed to rape a flanked machine gun, why shouldnt a flanking p4 at 5 meters rape a su85?

It's a pity there is still no official response from RELIC about this su85 issues while they acknowledge the other stuff Russians make continous whines about.

The said they are balancing each stage of the game starting with the early game, then mid and late game. I think their doing it right.

Requiring t3 building to get to soviet t4 is a good start. T3 units for the soviet should be worth using, and their usefulness is what will delay tier4.

+1 for this and the rest. Great post.

I simultaneously love and hate the way the soviet macro game is played, and I think that any attempt to balance the su85 needs to take this into account instead of merely tweaking stats.

The Good:
Different planned soviet builds are possible using call-ins and certain buildings (or none at all), as opposed to the Ostheer who will have little choice but to make the same units every game to stay competitive, and you will almost never see tier4 in a close 1v1.

The Bad:
Skipping buildings (tiers) + easy economic management for the soviets means the su85 pops out as mentioned right when a p4 does, if not before.

Su85s dont dominate german armor so much as prevent them from being worthwhile to use. As soon as a couple su85s sit behind the soviet front lines in a relatively close game, the ability to use vehicles is almost negated for the ostheer. God help you if you're trying to retake the vps on pripyat winter. It essentially takes an elefant to drive the su85s off to give yourself room to push, but if you have been building armor in a 1v1 you probably wont have 260 fuel to spare at that point.

What I'd like to see is something like this -

Step 1:
Buff t34/76s to make them viable vs panzer 4s statwise, reduce the effectiveness of ram
Nerf t70s so they arent quite the rape machine they are now; speed, armor, dps, choose 2
Discuss: Move su-76 to tier3? then require tier3 building to get to tier4

Tier 3 will take on the role of german tier 3 as the standard mid-game tier, with t-34s as the generalist tank like a panzer 4. I would be very interested to see the cost of t-70s increased as they negate ostheer t2 vehicles and don't have an effective counter other than mines (not a hard counter btw) if you bait them right... then they rebuild it. Ram spam would also have to be adjusted, possibly removing the 100% main gun damage on rammed vehicles. Requiring vet1 for ram would also be an interesting tradeoff.

Step 2:
Increase the time and cost to get to tier4 for the soviet player. Tier4 should be the exception not the rule. This tier4 bullshit at 10 minutes is fail design. Tier 3 should be the main mid-game tier for both sides because it'll be equally viable for both sides (aka buff t34s). Requiring t3 building to get to soviet t4 is a good start. T3 units for the soviet should be worth using, and their usefulness is what will delay tier4.

I think the easiest fix for the su-85 itself is to either cut the cancer and remove the spotting ability, and/or keep it and require it to deploy to fire long range. Possibly decrease rotation speed or accuracy up close since it has a casemate turret and shouldnt be able to match a tank in close combat. Discuss: possible small cost increase

Food for thought--if germans had panthers out at the same time as soviet t3, theyd be calling bullshit. If conscripts are supposed to rape a flanked machine gun, why shouldnt a flanking p4 at 5 meters rape a su85?

i dislike the t3 into t4 purely for the sheer ammount of resoruces it takes to get both buildings, 90 fuel each would give the germans a huuuge advantage in the teching war hows much does it take to tech from p4 to panthers and build hte building? 50 fuel or something around there.

I like the concept but you would need to change the costs of the tiers to make this viable.

"endgame" ? The fact that the building which gets you the SU85 doesnt require any Tiers whatsoever and Soviets can get it around the 10 minute mark is hardly "endgame". If you hold fuel you can spam at least 5 SU85's before most games are over.

It can be considered an endgame tank, even though you can get "T4" faster with the Russian/American tier system. Why?

Because, doctrines aside, it is the ultimate tank destroyer. Even with doctrines, you can't get a tank in the Soviet arsenal that, bang for buck, performs its role better than the SU-85.

Something to consider is that the soviets have almost no way to actually kill axis tanks other than SU-85s with their insane range (other than having extremely late game ISU-152 and IS-2s of course).

I think you can draw some parallels to the US v. Wehr matchup in vCoH. Here, wehrmacht tanks were balanced because:

1. Considerable tech costs. In CoH2 teching up to your MBT (The P4) is only T3 instead of T4 and often as cheap, if not cheaper, as getting a StuG in vCoH, with the Assault gun being a lot less effective overall. It was actually rather rare to see Wehrmacht T4 come out in your run-of-the-mill 1v1 game. Ostheer on the other hand almost always techs up to T3 unless they do some T2+mortarHT strat. This means that actual tanks are a whole lot more common in this match-up. Even then, in vCoH ATGs can kill pumas reasonably effectively and StuGs have a very hard time damaging infantry. M8s are also a pretty good counter to most things T3. The P4 in CoH2 however doesn't get killed in 2/3 ATG shots and can kill infantry quite well. It's also good against T70s and T-34s, i.e. most of Soviet T3.

It's also worth noting that Ostheer often has more map control than vCoH Wehrmacht and relatively more fuel income.

2. M10s. These actually kill damaged tanks. ATGs/mines can often damage and hold of axis armor, but can hardly ever destroy them. M10s often finish off axis armor. T34s would probably be the soviet equivalent of the M10, but T34s do very little damage and are often far too cost prohibitive to be used as M10s (consider the P4 vs. T-34 fuel cost).

This might be more of an issue of the T-34, but the point I'm trying to make is that the Soviets really need the effective AT of the Su-85 and this also applies to 2v2. I'm not denying that the SU-85 is too powerful, but I think the alternatives should really be buffed.

The SU-85 needs to be toned, but in such a way that overall Soviet AT is still up to par of killing power. I'd advise any Osteer only players who feel the SU-85 is overpowered to play Soviet games with no T4, enjoy your AT options.

The SU-85 needs to be toned, but in such a way that overall Soviet AT is still up to par of killing power. I'd advise any Osteer only players who feel the SU-85 is overpowered to play Soviet games with no T4, enjoy your AT options.

Just need to fix that last part. enjoy your AT option"

Just need to fix that last part. enjoy your AT option"

LOL, made my day

25 munition GP mines and AT grenades. 40 munition button (doctrinal). ZiS-3 - effective against armor and can barrage against infantry. T-34/76 with ram nullifying ANY Axis armor. T-34/85 (doctrinal) with ram AND a gun that penetrates the front armor of any Axis vehicle. SU-76 with decent penetration but bad damage and low health\armor. The T-70 that rapes any light vehicle and snipes infantry. ISU-152. And IS-2 (Admittedly, a shitty tank because of it's cost/speed/penetration). Let's not forget abilities like bombing runs and the 152mm howitzer.

All of these options are available to the Soviet player, yet the ONLY one you see EVERY game is the SU-85. Not because the other options don't work, but because the other options take a certain amount of skill and carry some amount of risk. Why bother with that when you can spam a relatively cheap, non-doctrinal unit that can frontally engage any other non-doctrinal (and most doctrinal) axis units with impunity and requires minimal support to be effective? A brain-dead hamster can micro an SU-85. Countering one requires skill. Countering more than one requires an Elefant.

If you are incompetent in dealing with the SU-85, then you are doing it wrong. I've never had problem vs SU-85 because i lay teller mines and most soviet players don't get minesweepers. 1 teller already makes the SU-85 a worthless junk that you can just flank easly. But in a scenario when you are facing 2+ SU-85, you need heavy tanks with paks and some sort of anti infantry units to keep the paks alive. Or a pak43 which is a true soviet can-opener.

Sometimes the soviet player loses patience, so he rushes in and if you predict such push, you can take the advantage and easly take out most of his SU-85's if not all.

Most of the time, when i manage to kill the first SU-85 quickly, i have a window of opportunity to end the game before another one comes out. Even if another one comes out, i've already made my counter stronger.

Also: good micro > all.

25 munition GP mines and AT grenades. 40 munition button (doctrinal). ZiS-3 - effective against armor and can barrage against infantry. T-34/76 with ram nullifying ANY Axis armor. T-34/85 (doctrinal) with ram AND a gun that penetrates the front armor of any Axis vehicle. SU-76 with decent penetration but bad damage and low health\armor. The T-70 that rapes any light vehicle and snipes infantry. ISU-152. And IS-2 (Admittedly, a shitty tank because of it's cost/speed/penetration). Let's not forget abilities like bombing runs and the 152mm howitzer.

All of these options are available to the Soviet player, yet the ONLY one you see EVERY game is the SU-85. Not because the other options don't work, but because the other options take a certain amount of skill and carry some amount of risk. Why bother with that when you can spam a relatively cheap, non-doctrinal unit that can frontally engage any other non-doctrinal (and most doctrinal) axis units with impunity and requires minimal support to be effective? A brain-dead hamster can micro an SU-85. Countering one requires skill. Countering more than one requires an Elefant.

AT grenads do nominal damage, please try killing a P4 with just AT nades and see how it works. button does no damage to tanks. ZiS-3 has to be stationary and only works in a difensive manner but it is a viable AT option. Ram also nullifies the the T34 and with only a 20 fuel difrence you will not have more 34s than P4s for more than a min.

The t34 85 is over 200 fuel investment making it a "im already winning" button and is doctrinal, the penertration on the 85 is actually lower than the P4 i bleive which throws your argument out the window, the Su-76 has a really bad gun for taking out armour at medium tank status or higher and it made out of paper.

At means anti TANK so light vehicles do not count and with that the t70, ISU 152 and IS2 are inthe same boat as elephant, bombing runs have a CD and hte howitzer comes too late AND it too inacrutate to be relied upon.


Soviet Anti Tank options are ZIS3 and SU85 everything else are support units for them.