Royal Engineers are op

That is not very accurate...currently in live Grenadiers(T1) loses to riflemen(T0) and to I.S.(T0)
Penals (T1) lose to SP(T0). Tier is one factor, cost is another.

well i would call the first building a T1 it's more of a T0.5

Have you tried moving your tanks?

There, PIATs hardcountered, regardless of how many there is.

Depends on the range. In addition the weapon register rear hit even from a front shot.
And the cherry on the top, major rear armor nerf is in the pipe for most heavy (and fat medium tanks)

they are 40 muni each, anybody can take tham in team games (soviets and usf)

they do 60% damage on deflect

just use attack ground and you will take out tanks no problems at all (at least the heavy ones)

Depends on the range. In addition the weapon register rear hit even from a front shot.
And the cherry on the top, major rear armor nerf is in the pipe for most heavy (and fat medium tanks)

Which doesn't matter, because PIATs are designed to hardcounter big slow armor regardless of their armor values.

well i would call the first building a T1 it's more of a T0.5

then also call Soviet T1 as T 0.5, and Wer T 2.5

Those PIATs are ridiculous. And people were crying about the schrecks... now you got a 50 munition version can be added to ANYONE... what could go wrong with this?

I also agree with you that PIATs are the best handheld weapon in the game vs Axis armour (including Schrecks). The fact that they are too spammable only adds to this.

However, in order to fix the issue with PIATs:
- You have to close the gap between micro-capable users and micro-incapable users. Currently, this is RIDICULOUSLY wide. To a PIAT god, 70 Munitions per PIAT would seem very little. To somebody that doesn't know how to PIAT, 30 Munitions per PIAT already seems too much.
- Once you have closed the gap, now you can apply the necessary nerfs (e.g., price/performance nerf)
- If you don't close the gap, the low-end people will rightly become outraged.
- This is not a L2P for PIAT people. This is a design issue that promotes micro-for-micro's sake. This is when no other weapon/unit in the game ever gets even close to that! That's just wrong in an RTS game.

Svanh is right on the money, there (I have to test the solution in a mod first-hand to see how his PIATs behave though).

How is that mobile mortar you and PlanetSmasher were working on going? An easy way to buff the UKF early game without introducing new upgrades would be to move Sappers to T0 (with emplacements restricted to their current tiers) and fill their spot in T1 with a mobile mortar.

You can then go for long-range Tommy DPS or the less powerful but better at chasing Sappers. As a bonus, you also don't have to rely on the Mortar Pit.

EDIT: I've implemented this into the mod I posted earlier. Sappers are now in T0 and UKF has a copy of the USF 60mm mortar in T1.

The way that Planet Smasher has explained to me, it is impossible to add a mobile version of the Brit mortar in the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52470/mod-request-garrisonable-mortar-pits

This is something that only Relic can do; however I don't think it matters much (just use a different model). I posit that if the emplacement revamp idea catches on Relic might be willing to code in some animations for the mobile 3-inch mortar.

However, we (i.e., Planet Smasher; I have 0 skill in this) have been working on adapting UKF emplacements to feel more natural, and removing the need for brace (e.g., Pit -> garrisonable Trench, 17pdr -> pak43).

Planet Smasher has been very busy with RL stuff, thus our progress has halted. If you want to help me, I would really really really appreciate your help, since I have absolutely 0 experience with modding.

I usually use the Sniper version as well (better range and don't have to give up healing).

The Tommy, Forward HQ and Sniper call-ins all fire six shells per Howitzer. The Royal Arty barrage fires three per howitzer.

Thx!

I'm probably not being clear enough or misunderstanding you, but the issue I'm trying to solve with that change is that weapon upgrades (the major scaling mechanic for infantry) are better on Sappers than on Tommies.

This is because Sappers currently get a better Bren (fixed by giving them the Tommy Bren) and don't suffer the out-of-cover penalty (fixed by moving the penalty to the weapons and giving Tommies a bonus in cover to return them to their previous in-cover performance).

The practical effect of this is that Tommy performance stays the same but Sapper performance (with Brens, Vickers and PIATs) is reduced to an out-of-cover Tommy level. You could easily adjust how this works with the Sapper cover bonus (i.e., keeping the current cover bonus for their Stens but giving them the Tommy cover bonus with other weapons) to ensure they weren't nerfed into the ground.

From the thread in which I first suggested changing the cover penalty, captured weapons make up a percentage of the reasons against it completely disproportionate to their effect. I'd prefer captured weapons didn't benefit from the cover bonus simply to defuse that issue before it starts.

I actually rethought this. We might be having the same idea about how to modify Tommies, but we present this in a different way.

Both our ideas boil down to making Tommies more hard-hitting than Sappers (and, if necessary, squishier, so that there is a trade-off). In both the current implementation and (your) proposed implementation, there will still remain a gap between Tommies in-cover and Tommies out-of-cover.

In my idea, I explained one way to achieve this is to trade off some received accuracy for (offsensive) accuracy. If Tommies receive enough accuracy, their Brens will already become more hard-hitting than Sappers when both squads reach Vet3.

Another possible trade-off is to give away some received accuracy at Vet0 for accuracy (or cooldown, or reload etc) for Brens, Piats, Enfields. This is identical to your idea about turning the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

However, I feel it will be easier on the maintaining team to keep track of this, as they won't have to check whether they should apply the bonus to the weapons or not. (what will happen if Relic decides to add purchasable <insert weapon name> as an upgrade to Tommies in the future?). In my mind, easier to maintain = simpler = better

From the thread in which I first suggested changing the cover penalty, captured weapons make up a percentage of the reasons against it completely disproportionate to their effect. I'd prefer captured weapons didn't benefit from the cover bonus simply to defuse that issue before it starts.

Actually, if you think about it, Tommies are the absolute worst mainline for picking up capturable weapons (and not just because of the Vet3 bug). This is because slot weapons benefit from offensive veterancy, of which Tommies get very little. A grenadier squad with an LMG34 is a death god (+40% accuracy). That's even worse if you give it to a Sturmpioneer, or a Penal squad squad (+70% accuracy).

Tommies get the short end of the stick here, which makes them inferior for picking up weapons ("only" +20% accuracy, cover penalty). The only reason you would consider giving weapons to Tommies though, is because none of the UKF squads receive any offensive bonuses whatsoever (Sappers get 0 in that regard).

Hence, turning some received accuracy into (offensive) accuracy will probably wipe off the need to turn the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

then also call Soviet T1 as T 0.5, and Wer T 2.5

Soviet T1 and T2 are actually T1.5, T3 is T2.5 and T4 is actual T3 when considering strength of the units within in relation to wehr.

I also agree with you that PIATs are the best handheld weapon in the game vs Axis armour (including Schrecks). The fact that they are too spammable only adds to this.

However, in order to fix the issue with PIATs:
- You have to close the gap between micro-capable users and micro-incapable users. Currently, this is RIDICULOUSLY wide. To a PIAT god, 70 Munitions per PIAT would seem very little. To somebody that doesn't know how to PIAT, 30 Munitions per PIAT already seems too much.
- Once you have closed the gap, now you can apply the necessary nerfs (e.g., price/performance nerf)
- If you don't close the gap, the low-end people will rightly become outraged.
- This is not a L2P for PIAT people. This is a design issue that promotes micro-for-micro's sake. This is when no other weapon/unit in the game ever gets even close to that! That's just wrong in an RTS game.

Svanh is right on the money, there (I have to test the solution in a mod first-hand to see how his PIATs behave though).



The way that Planet Smasher has explained to me, it is impossible to add a mobile version of the Brit mortar in the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52470/mod-request-garrisonable-mortar-pits

This is something that only Relic can do; however I don't think it matters much (just use a different model). I posit that if the emplacement revamp idea catches on Relic might be willing to code in some animations for the mobile 3-inch mortar.

However, we (i.e., Planet Smasher; I have 0 skill in this) have been working on adapting UKF emplacements to feel more natural, and removing the need for brace (e.g., Pit -> garrisonable Trench, 17pdr -> pak43).

Planet Smasher has been very busy with RL stuff, thus our progress has halted. If you want to help me, I would really really really appreciate your help, since I have absolutely 0 experience with modding.



Thx!



I actually rethought this. We might be having the same idea about how to modify Tommies, but we present this in a different way.

Both our ideas boil down to making Tommies more hard-hitting than Sappers (and, if necessary, squishier, so that there is a trade-off). In both the current implementation and (your) proposed implementation, there will still remain a gap between Tommies in-cover and Tommies out-of-cover.

In my idea, I explained one way to achieve this is to trade off some received accuracy for (offsensive) accuracy. If Tommies receive enough accuracy, their Brens will already become more hard-hitting than Sappers when both squads reach Vet3.

Another possible trade-off is to give away some received accuracy at Vet0 for accuracy (or cooldown, or reload etc) for Brens, Piats, Enfields. This is identical to your idea about turning the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

However, I feel it will be easier on the maintaining team to keep track of this, as they won't have to check whether they should apply the bonus to the weapons or not. (what will happen if Relic decides to add purchasable <insert weapon name> as an upgrade to Tommies in the future?). In my mind, easier to maintain = simpler = better



Actually, if you think about it, Tommies are the absolute worst mainline for picking up capturable weapons (and not just because of the Vet3 bug). This is because slot weapons benefit from offensive veterancy, of which Tommies get very little. A grenadier squad with an LMG34 is a death god (+40% accuracy). That's even worse if you give it to a Sturmpioneer, or a Penal squad squad (+70% accuracy).

Tommies get the short end of the stick here, which makes them inferior for picking up weapons ("only" +20% accuracy, cover penalty). The only reason you would consider giving weapons to Tommies though, is because none of the UKF squads receive any offensive bonuses whatsoever (Sappers get 0 in that regard).

Hence, turning some received accuracy into (offensive) accuracy will probably wipe off the need to turn the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

Mate please.. could you edit your quotes.. i only commented the first one. :-)

Mate please.. could you edit your quotes.. i only commented the first one. :-)

Ooops; Sorry! Done!

The way that Planet Smasher has explained to me, it is impossible to add a mobile version of the Brit mortar in the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52470/mod-request-garrisonable-mortar-pits

This is something that only Relic can do; however I don't think it matters much (just use a different model). I posit that if the emplacement revamp idea catches on Relic might be willing to code in some animations for the mobile 3-inch mortar.

However, we (i.e., Planet Smasher; I have 0 skill in this) have been working on adapting UKF emplacements to feel more natural, and removing the need for brace (e.g., Pit -> garrisonable Trench, 17pdr -> pak43).

Planet Smasher has been very busy with RL stuff, thus our progress has halted. If you want to help me, I would really really really appreciate your help, since I have absolutely 0 experience with modding.

When I made the 60mm copy, I just switched the weapon crew models from USF weapon crew to Vickers weapon crew. The stats and text for captured weapons did the rest. The only problems with my current implementation are that I haven't changed the name and flavour text and that it uses a USF icon in the building menu.

I'd certainly be willing to mod some things for you but I couldn't promise constant, immediate updates. I'm looking at a fairly busy period myself and I'm not the greatest modder. Send me a PM with what you need and I'll tell you if I can do it.

I actually rethought this. We might be having the same idea about how to modify Tommies, but we present this in a different way.

Both our ideas boil down to making Tommies more hard-hitting than Sappers (and, if necessary, squishier, so that there is a trade-off). In both the current implementation and (your) proposed implementation, there will still remain a gap between Tommies in-cover and Tommies out-of-cover.

In my idea, I explained one way to achieve this is to trade off some received accuracy for (offsensive) accuracy. If Tommies receive enough accuracy, their Brens will already become more hard-hitting than Sappers when both squads reach Vet3.

Another possible trade-off is to give away some received accuracy at Vet0 for accuracy (or cooldown, or reload etc) for Brens, Piats, Enfields. This is identical to your idea about turning the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

However, I feel it will be easier on the maintaining team to keep track of this, as they won't have to check whether they should apply the bonus to the weapons or not. (what will happen if Relic decides to add purchasable <insert weapon name> as an upgrade to Tommies in the future?). In my mind, easier to maintain = simpler = better

Accuracy veterancy would certainly be a good way to go about it. I'd prefer to keep their initial target size constant and reduce their vet 2 received accuracy bonus as a trade-off (increasing the multiplier from 0.76 to 0.85?).

The accuracy gain would also need to be fairly gradual. Having a 40% accuracy increase spread across all three vet levels (i.e., 12% vet 1, 12% vet 2, 12% vet 3) would be a good starting point. Reload bonuses would also help with their PIAT performance, although I'd need to have a look at the numbers for that.

Actually, if you think about it, Tommies are the absolute worst mainline for picking up capturable weapons (and not just because of the Vet3 bug). This is because slot weapons benefit from offensive veterancy, of which Tommies get very little. A grenadier squad with an LMG34 is a death god (+40% accuracy). That's even worse if you give it to a Sturmpioneer, or a Penal squad squad (+70% accuracy).

Tommies get the short end of the stick here, which makes them inferior for picking up weapons ("only" +20% accuracy, cover penalty). The only reason you would consider giving weapons to Tommies though, is because none of the UKF squads receive any offensive bonuses whatsoever (Sappers get 0 in that regard).

Hence, turning some received accuracy into (offensive) accuracy will probably wipe off the need to turn the cover penalty into a cover bonus.

Fair points. I've been coming at it from a position of "buffing IS without buffing IS" simply because balance problems are blamed on the faction in its entirety, not the individual units (Bofors!).