Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
[Generalization Incoming]
Why do good balance suggestions have such little support and the bad balance suggestions get a wall of text in their OP?
Posts: 1072
T1 units are stronger then T0 units.
More news at 11.
Posts: 960
Maybe they are a little bit strong. Their vet3 50% cheaper reinforce is the biggest problem IMO
-Reinforcement cost reduction at vet3 IS OP.
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Broken? Not really. (has REs spam become a thing, now, and I missed the memo?)
Overperforming for their cost? Definitely. However we need to make the following distinction:
- Their call-in cost is cheap for a 4-man squad, and dirt-cheap for a 5-man squad
- Their reinforcement cost is OK-ish (compare to other line infantry for instance)
- They cost the same-or-more popcap as other line infantry
However, before we go ahead and balance the only non-underperforming infantry of the Brits let's have a look at the bigger picture.
Spamming Tommies doesn't work; Tommies are a bit meh for their cost, and you will bleed heavily.
Spamming Sappers doesn't work either; sure, on 1v1 with other infantry, they are cost efficient. However, they have a very low range and can be cattle-prodded with MGs very easily.
You are meant to use both of them at the same time so that each unit's advantages covers the other unit's disadvantages.
Tommies
Tommies cost 280MP, and are probably priced with their 5-man version in mind.
For a 4-man squad, Tommies are extremely overpriced at 280MP. Part of that call-in premium goes towards:
- Tommies' received accuracy at Vet0 (-20%)
- Is probably meant to be recuperated by more cost-efficient units (Sappers).
Tommies, however, suffer from the following:
- Cover penalty
- Severe moving accuracy penalty
- Their Vet3 penalty bug (weapon pinatas)
- They scale well, but not as well as other infantry in the game (if you compare the bonuses)
- Part of the reason behind this scalability lag is that they already get some of the benefits at Vet0
- Unless you plan on blobbing your entire army, the faction design forces UKF to have at least 2 Tommies so that they get access to healing
I will leave it up to you to decide whether 280MP is a fair price for a 5-man Tommy squad.
Sappers
Sappers are very generously priced for a 4-man unit. Of course, this cost becomes insanely low considering that Sappers can become 5-man squads.
Their Vet0 reinforcement cost is not that bad. They cost 7/8 popcap and are meant to act as line infantry to cover up for Tommies' weaknesses.
The combat bonuses they get are at:
- Vet0 (0.8 reinforcement cost)
- Vet1 (Stens fire faster when in cover -- currently it's bugged and affects ALL weapons)
- Vet3 (Additional received accuracy bonus, Halved reinforcement cost)
Now:
1. Sappers cost equal/more popcap than other line infantry.
2. The Vet3 Reinforcement cost bonus is outright OP and needs to be thrown out immediately IMO (or moved to Conscripts)
3. The call-in cost could be adjusted to be fair. However, it would also be fair to adjust the Tommies' callin cost at the same time.
4. I don't know if one of the received accuracy bonuses needs to be reduced.
5. Alternatively, their Vet0 received accuracy bonus could be tied to a specific Veterancy tier.
6. However, this unit receives no offensive vet bonuses at all (apart from the recent bug).
Overall, as a line-infantry, Sappers get very tanky-kind-of veterancy. That, coupled with the Heavy Engineer upgrade makes them extremely difficult to eradicate. That is, until you figure out that you should be using grenades against them.
(Excluding the recent bug), none of the bonuses affects their offensive capability with equipped weapons. This means that you need Tommies to dish out the damage, and it probably makes sense to have Sappers to soak up the damage.
That's right. No matter how much munitions you sink into Sappers, Tommies will still be able to deal more damage with equal (or less) amount of munitions invested.
Provided that this is balanced, I think that's good design (as opposed to spamming Rifle-Rifle-Rifle or Volks-Volks-Volks)
Weapon teams
If we nerf Sappers, UKF will lack a low-reinforcement utility-only unit to reman weapon teams.
Currently, we have:
- USF has RE for 25MP-a-pop (a bit overnerfed) -- no special utility
- Soviets have Conscripts for 20-a-pop -- no special utility
- OKW has Volks for 25-a-pop -- no special utility
- OST has Pioneers (25-a-pop) or Osttruppen (20-a-pop) -- Pioneers have a passive sight bonus. Osttruppen reinforce very very very fast
- UKF has Sappers for 26-a-pop -- Sappers have a 0.8 received accuracy
(Btw, Vickers is also overpriced at 280MP. Shouldn't we also fix that too?)
Conclusions
1. The Sappers Vet3 reinforcement cost bonus (13MP) is ridiculously OP and needs to go.
2. Don't fix Sappers further unless you also plan on fixing Tommies too.
3. Otherwise, don't come here to complain when UKF starts spamming nothing but snipers and emplacements as their line infantry.
Posts: 181
Posts: 61
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
That is not very accurate...currently in live Grenadiers(T1) loses to riflemen(T0) and to I.S.(T0)
Penals (T1) lose to SP(T0). Tier is one factor, cost is another.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
Posts: 677
T1 units are stronger then T0 units.
More expensive unit of role A > cheaper unit of role A.
Not sure if arguing for the sake of act of arguing or just that stupid
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Posts: 246
UA
soviets
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Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Maybe instead of reinforce they should receive something else?
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Posts: 1930
Yeah, royal engineers are indeed bit too stronk.
I'd suggest toning down the vet 3 reinforcement bonus and making the sweeper take up a weapon slot.
Posts: 207
More expensive unit of role A > cheaper unit of role A.
Not sure if arguing for the sake of act of arguing or just that stupid
Posts: 677
Posts: 134
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198049062069 <-- not a single brit game
Posts: 134
Posts: 1281 | Subs: 3
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
I just think that the history of UKF thus far has been underpowered core infantry cancelled out by extreme faction cheese. One of the best buffs you could give to infantry sections is to switch base damage to their damage out of cover and strengthen them to their original normal damage once they leave cover. Right now you just have shitty vickers damage when you are out of cover.
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